posted 12-30-2003 10:36 AM         

It is a rule of thumb among the pit bull world, that a human aggressive pit bull be 'put to sleep' asap - PERIOD! Pit bulls have the worse reputation of any breed and this is the reason BSL is so bad in many, MANY states and around the world. People ignorant to the fact of putting down their human aggressive pit bull pet is the only right thing to do, are part of our problem. The other part is the nuts who actually breed for this type of aggression. It is very hard to do, yes. But it would be even harder if your dog actually does great harm to someone - even kill a loved one. You know that.
Pit Bulls are NOT genetically programed to be human aggressive, so if you are unfortunate to own one, it is because it is either mentally unstable to begin with, or the dog was trained or abused. Even with abuse, the majority of pit bulls are still the loving dogs they were bred to be. A pit bull makes a great watchdog, but a well bred pit bull make terrible guard dogs in the normal home, just because of the fact they are such human friendly creatures! Put the dog to sleep!!! It will NOT change, only get worse. Do you really want to put upon someone else, what you yourself fear? NO. Please do what is right for the dog, and for your family and friends who live and visit. Not to mention how much trouble you'll ask for $$ wise.

------------------
REDCOAT KENNELS
Home of the chocolate/rednose!

posted 12-30-2003 11:04 AM         

Sarah, this is not right. No one should have to go through this with any and everyone who comes in contact with the dog. Any well-rounded pit bull won't be a liability. Sure, there are pit bulls who are 'protective' BUT, they should never ever be so protective you are scared of what they might do. As I said previously, the Pit Bull is the #1 dog on BSL lists. Ohio has to be one of the, if not thee worst states for owners and their dogs. It might be your state or city next. Please get more acquainted with the breed, it's history and it's future, instead of just owning one and being a 'happy camper'. And I say this in a caring way.

posted 12-31-2003 07:51 AM         

My email address is hafkel@hotmail.com

posted 12-31-2003 09:13 AM         

If you read my websites, you'll see, plainly, that I do NOT accept, or tolerate, ANY dog that has human agression. Especially Pit Bulls (Staffies and Pit Bulls are the same breed), as this breed was NEVER bred for human aggression, and for the dog to be human aggression, there IS a problem. There is no possible way to rehabilitate or re-home a dog of this nature, without taking the chance that he attacks/kills someone, and I am not willing to take on the responsibility of placing a dog that I KNOW has aggressive tendencies into a home where he could possibly attack/kill someone, and take the chance that the entire breed suffers as a result, and with a Pit Bull, EVERY incident counts toward destroying the breed.

You may not want to euthanize him, but I can assure you frmo six years of
experience doing rescue, and a lifetime of experience loving/working with this breed, that this is NOT normal. If he were to have bitten (or in the future DOES bite) someone who wants to press the issue of him being euthanized, the shelter will pick him up, stick him in a solitary kennel, be VERY mean to him, and then cut his head off and send it to a lab. I hate to be so graphic, but people who contact me about aggressive dogs often do NOT realize what will be done to their dog if they are FORCED to euthanize them rather than being the one to make the decision. I think you, and he, would prefer to make the choice to euthanize him so that you can be with him, comforting and holding him, where he's not alone or
scared. This is a MUCH better end to his life than what will happen if you are FORCED to euthanize him. I see this EVERY day with dogs that are taken to be euthanized, and if you love him as you say you do, you do NOT want this happening to him.

I can promise you, 100%, that NO rescue will accept this dog into their
rescue. I work with every Pit Bull rescue across the U.S. and they all
share the feelings I do towards human aggression in Pit Bulls. Most of
them don't have any extra room, but even if they did, they do NOT accept
human aggressive dogs. Period. If you want him to be safe, either keep
him and try to work with him, OR, euthanize him the humane way. This is
the only advice I can give to you. I DO hope you strongly consider it: I
do know what I'm talking about, as I live life with rescue dogs every day
and SEE what happens to dogs that are human aggressive: expecially the Pit
Bulls.

posted 12-31-2003 09:15 AM         

Unfortunately, from what you have said, there is really no other good option for this dog other than to be put down.

If a rescue were to take in this dog, and they were genuine in their efforts, they would have the dog put down immediately.

Human aggression of any kind should not be tolerated with this breed. It is much too easy for someone to get seriously injured or possibly killed.

The kindest thing you can do for your dog is to be with him as he's put to sleep. It's the responsible thing to do. Passing along this kind of problem hoping it will get resolved is not the thing to do.

An unneutered male pit bull that has always been aggressive to people should not be trusted to be 'rehabilitated' into a non-biting dog. There are just too many circumstances that can trigger another bite.

I'm sorry that I can't help you, but it is the best thing to do. I've had to put down several pit bulls in my years in rescue for that very thing.

When your friend knelt down and was eye-level with the dog, the dog became aggressive. Suppose a small child, not knowing better were to try to hug him? It's not something I want to dwell on very much.

I'm sorry I can't offer a better solution.

posted 12-31-2003 11:29 AM         

Do you really think he deserves that? Its not is fault, its in his genetics.
But you have a family and a life to protect, you can protect him from harm to himself or him doing harm to another by putting him down.

I'm sorry your in this situation. If I were in your shoes, I'd contact who I got him from and find out his ENTIRE background, pedigree, and histories.

posted 12-31-2003 11:42 AM         

"DO NOT KILL THAT DOG- IT IS NO ONE'S FAULT IT BIT EXCEPT THE FOOL GETTING IN IT'S FACE!"

You SHOULDN'T have to worry about getting up in a dogs face. A dog should not bite under those circumstances. The sooner people realize that the better. You especially shouldn't have to worry about a Pit Bull type breed doing something like that. Of course most people believe its the norm with people allowing their dogs to be vicious and not doing anything about it. If someone has to say "Don't get too close to my dog it may bite." Then there is a problem. Especially for a bully breed. What would have happened had it been one of the step daughters friends or a child the neices age? That child probably would be dead right now.

"if you try giving him away, your only going to attract the fighters"

posted 12-31-2003 12:46 PM         

As far as the_maine_pitbull says, come on. So she should let this dangerous dog live in her household the rest of his entire life with a muzzle on 24/7? Because that is what she would have to do. She does not trust this dog anymore! She has reason not to trust this dog anymore! She did state numerous times that other people, including loved ones had to be 'introduced' slowly. Oh wow... thats comforting. And again, you are repeating what another poster said, it is the fault of the 'other guy'. That is simply not acceptable in this breed. I am wondering just how much experience you know on this particular breed. Just because you may be familiar with other breeds don't mean jack when it comes to this one. i have a dog here that only sees me and my husband 95% of the time since we live in the sticks. When people do come over she doesn't want to be around people. She will just trot on over to an area where it's free of strangers. I will make her come in contact with them to get her used to them, and no matter how uncomfortable or scared she may be, she would NEVER EVER bite someone! Behaviorist may be good for some things, but not this.

Also, getting opinions from the general public, who have no idea the origin of this breed isn't worth a pot to piss in.

There is a code of ethics in the pit bull world and everyone should know it, including you. ZERO tolerance on man - biters.
Another thing, when you casually mentioned how people on here think they are professional and think their opinion is the right opinion, were you also including yourself?

All in all, it is clear from what Gemini concluded, not only from the replies from this board, but from other experienced with this breed and professionals, she is going to do what is right and euthanize this dog. And she will know in her heart she has done the best she possibly could with her dog and ultimately did the right thing in the end. I truly commend her for this.

posted 12-31-2003 12:49 PM         

Angie

posted 12-31-2003 03:28 PM         

There was a lot of other things I wanted to comment on from "Maine", but hell with it. Why listen to someone who has owned this breed for nearly 20 years?

posted 12-31-2003 10:00 PM         

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It is nearly impossible to control every situation for every minute of a dogs life.

You never know what is going to set a fear aggressive dog off. What will scare it next?

I went throught this with a mixed breed dog. It ended when he was standing next to me in a feed store and a kid walked by us. The kid did not run, did not scream..he was behaving well.

Cajun jumped on his back and started kill shaking him. If he had not have had a winter coat on, he would have been mauled. What set Cajun off? Who knows. Should I have had him out in the world? What kind of life is it to live in 4 walls every day of your life?

Once the owner puts the dog down, and the grief subsides, the owner can start to live like a normal person again. Not worrying what the dog is going to do next or who will be next to get bitten. Living with a dog like this is like living in prison. It hurts to let the dog go, but it is also liberating.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The dog is not correct. Sorry.
He could really, really hurt someone, and statistically it will be the owner's child or one of the child's friends.
Send him back to God.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This trainer obviously doesn't know anything about the breed. Just from the information given, there was no reason the dog should have reacted as he did. This is a breed that should be confident and NOT wary of strangers. I agree with most of the posts so far - the dog needs to be put down. He is going to hurt someone very badly and most likely a child. No excuse.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
well maybe if it was just that incident but... the owner said the dog has growled at her children. not worth the risk to me. id put it down.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Speaking from personal experience, I would say put the dog down. This is a behavior that a person does not want to try to modify. I dont think a person would like to live everyday on your gaurd 24/7. Because one small mistake or if you get comfortable for one minute could lead to your dog making the headlines.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Dogs bite for reasons- fear, protection, resources, etc. This dog obviously bit out of fear."

This breed is not a fearful one.

" The dog does not know how to handle new people and is weary, nothing wrong with that."

Yes, with THIS breed there is.

"Dogs have every right to be as weary with strangers as humans. No reason to kill a dog for being scared and sticking up for itself."

This dog's owner was with it - there WAS no reason to be wary of the stranger OR fearful. This breed should be supremely confident in all situations.

"It thought of nothing other than this strange person touching it. It is a normal dog reaction."

Not with this breed it isn't.

" If this were a Poodle or Pomeranian, would anyone being questioning putting it to death? No, because they are not Pit Bull's, but one Pit Bull gets fear aggressive and dislikes strange people and everyone wants to see it put to death. Not fair for the dog"

From the STCA's judges seminar (give THIS to your "behaviorist):

THE IDEAL SPECIMEN MUST ALWAYS APPEAR CONFIDENT AND FRIENDLY WITH HUMANS. ABSOLUTELY NO CONSIDERATION SHOULD BE GIVEN TO AN EXHIBIT THAT APPEARS AGGRESSIVE, THREATENING OR SHY TOWARD HUMANS. THESE ARE COMPLETELY INCORRECT FOR THE BREED AND ARE INEXCUSABLE.

There is no question the dog should be put down.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

posted 01-01-2004 02:20 PM         

They must definitely have the love of and for pit bulls, but as far as Veronica and her following goes, their certain way of thinking is totally 'left field'.. I would suggest you find other groups to expand your horizon. Lar-San board for instances, http://www.purebredpuppy.com/forum/? How about my board, the "BBB" (Better Breeders Board) http://www.bbboard.net I will guarantee you all the information you need.
OOPS... by the way, I really like this message board. Very civil.. Don't see too much of that.

PS. What is apparent? What the heck are you talking about? Whats the matter with you, can't take opinions that don't coincide with your own? You can think what you want to think, and I can think what I want. Does that make me bad? Oh I get it. You are on the Pitbull_l. THat explains everything.
------------------
REDCOAT KENNELS
Home of the chocolate/rednose!

[This message has been edited by chickee (edited 01-01-2004).]

posted 01-02-2004 07:42 AM         

No I don't own a APB, I have read up on their history. I was just making a generalized statement, that if she tries to advertise that she has an agressive dog, she's going to attract the wrong people.
Sorry for the confusion. I should have worded that diffrently.

Angie : I can definately see your consern with this, though even taking him to a trainer, or behavioralist, isn't going to change much. You can't change a dogs reactions to fear, or agression.
I don't know a trainer that would work with a people agressive dog without a muzzle, and what are you going to achieve by muzzling him while trying to train???

If she can't live with out fear, and no one can take or will take it, theres only one solution to safety, put it down humainly.

Its awful that this has to happen, but what other choice do you have? The dog obviously has something wrong with it, and its not going to change!

posted 01-03-2004 09:12 AM         

From everythign Ihave gathered,

your dog is a four year old unneutered male that you got from a shelter.

You knew the dog had a bit of a problem with strangers, also it was very attached to you.. Can you tell me what you were doing letting someone else handler your dog, your timid dog that is scared of strange people? Why are you not taking responsibility ? Why aren't you protecting the dog from situations liek these? As well as the people around.

The dog growled at a young child- what was the dog and child doing together unsupervised? Why were you letting a small child around a dog with aggressive possibilities, a dog you know nothing of the history about?

I agree m,uzzling only makes it worse, I never used a muizzle before- but gemini- I feel no sympathy for you at this time because you took on a dog without knowledge... would you buy horses without knowing anythign about them? Would you own a peice of machinery without knowing how to use it? No but you could take in a dog, for reasons unknown and allow this to come of it.. you could take in a dog and be irresponsible and not know anythign of the breed.

You, my dear, are just another statistic- another addition to the big worl dof bad press- I am sure this attack was all over headlines- I am sure that they all say, "Killer Pit Bull." I am sur eyour dog is being reprimanded for things that aren't his fault but all a result of irresponsible uneducated ownership.

And Chickee-- what in the hell gives you reason to beleive that you can post what I say on other message boards?? Do not copy what I say and post them on other message boards.. understood?? You are being reported to Auspetian because if I rememebr that is not allowed...

Good day to you all- this is where I end because you all may think I am wrong but that is your deal not mine- maybe the dog should be put down to end what it has to deal with from here on out, but it shouldn't be put down for aggressive behavior-- it shouldn't be killed for someone's wrong doing--

posted 01-03-2004 10:28 AM         

Idiots doing the RIGHT thing. One of the main reasons this breed is in such a bad situation is because people refuse to put man aggressive dogs down. This breed should never bite people. That is a PERFECT reason to put a dog down. People who can't face the facts and take responsibilty to put the dog down shouldn't be owning this breed, not the other way around. This breed was known as one of the most friendly why because man aggressive dogs were put down. Even today among, non-dogman, NOT putting a people aggressive dog down is looked down upon. Some still don't and make excuses which is wrong.

"your timid dog that is scared of strange people?"

APBTs/ASTs should NOT be scared of strange people under any circumstances.

"Why are you not taking responsibility ?"

Very much is by doing what has to be done.

"The dog growled at a young child"

I would have culled it then. Why give it the opportunity to bite when its already shown aggression. Bites could be prevented if the dogs are put down once they show any aggression.
APBTs/ASTs should love children and should NEVER growl at one.

"I am sure this attack was all over headlines- I am sure that they all say, "Killer Pit Bull." I am sur eyour dog is being reprimanded for things that aren't his fault but all a result of irresponsible uneducated ownership."

Probably not, although its a possibility I doubt it was in the their news papers. That is one of the reason AGGRESSIVE dogs should be put down. They are a defect in the breed and only cause bad press. uneducated? Education and long time experience tells me these dogs should be people friendly, self assured and confident. Not timid, scared or a man biter. Education and experience tells me these type of Pit Bulls should be put down as they are a sickness to the breed and a defect at whole. Its not gemini fault she ended up with a dog as such. Its not truly the dogs fault, it lies more with the person who bred the dog. Probably somebody out for money careless of temperment or health. That doesn't mean the dog should be allowed to live and pose more danger. These dogs are the reason I can't get homeowers insurance. People who keep these dogs make me so MAD! You can't be with a dog every second of its life to prevent another attack.

posted 01-04-2004 12:19 AM         

It sounds like to me that you should have never owned this kinda dog in the 1st place.
The way your so willing to have him put down, shows how much you are really dedicated to your "pet" & NOT loved one!!!

There are solutions...
Being responsible is knowing when to put a dog down, and this IS NOT the time. This is NOT giving your dog justice.
I think your just tierd of having a lifetimes worth of dedication.
I personally think you failed as a dog owner.

"And I can tell you I will be very cautious about the next breed of dog I get."

--The dog world REALLY hopes so !!!

"I won't get another pet for a while, but when and if I do, I will do much more research on the right dog for me and my family."

--please P L E A S E do that!!!
This is something you should have done in the 1st place as a "responsible" owner.

You giving up on him, doesn't/SHOULD'NT have to cost him his life.

IT WASN'T HIS FAULT.

posted 01-05-2004 09:44 AM         

Personally, I would have plugged it the first time it growled at my child.