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Author Topic:   ggggrrrrowling puppy
knobbles
Member

Posts: 61
From:Australia
Registered: Feb 2004

posted 02-25-2004 05:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for knobbles     Edit/Delete Message
hello!
Can I first just say that I really love this message board and find it to be so helpful, so thankyou everyone for making it so great...
Anyway, ANOTHER (!) question from me:
My little dobe pup is about 3 months old now, and her personality is starting to develop... the other day she got into the garden (I have it fenced off & she dug underneath the fence) and I keep getting her out and she kept darting straight back in again. The last time I picked her up she cracked it and as I picked her up she wriggled like crazy and growled at me!!! Is this something I should be worried about? She did it again last night when I had to wake her to take her to her night time bed, she fully growled at me when I picked her up!! I couldn't believe the cheek of the little thing! My older dog & her play together and he growls alot when they play, is he teaching her to be a growler??

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nern

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From:NY, USA
Registered: Oct 2002

posted 02-25-2004 06:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for nern     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
My older dog & her play together and he growls alot when they play, is he teaching her to be a growler??

IMO, no. There is a difference between a playful growl and a warning growl. Sounds like she is giving you a warning because she does not want to be moved. Have you considered obedience classes for her?
I think you might also find this site helpful in training her: http://k9deb.com/nilif.htm

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Marcia McLean-Jasinski
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Posts: 63
From:USA - New York
Registered: Nov 2003

posted 02-25-2004 06:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marcia McLean-Jasinski     Edit/Delete Message
How long have you had this puppy? I am very curious to know what lines she has any Z factored white in there? were this pups parents both aggressive when you saw them could you pet them?I have been breeding dobbies for a few years now and that is not a normal thing for your own female to growl at you. A male yes but a female I just cant see this. You need to get this girl in line now. no letting her on the bed or any furniture. you must teach her sit at the door aqnd you go though the door first you are alpha not her. take that pup and roll her on her back make sure you have a really good hold on her scruff and mouth and make her stay belly up until she chills out. you must must must take this puppy to obediance classes and really start to socalize her well. she growls again it is a very deep firm NO she needs to hear from you do not baby talk this puppy, then grab her scruff and roll her and tell her again NO you will not do this. if you dont start training this dog it will train you no doupt.

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Marcia Jasinski
JKKsdobermans@cs.com http://ourworld.cs.com/jkksdobermans/myhomepage/dog.html
owned
by Angus(Latvia) Kleo(Russia), Ginger and BellaDonna (Plus her 9 new pups)

[This message has been edited by Marcia McLean-Jasinski (edited 02-25-2004).]

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ryokitokiri
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Posts: 74
From:USA
Registered: Feb 2004

posted 02-25-2004 07:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ryokitokiri     Edit/Delete Message
I agree with Marcia McLean-Jasinski
My puppy only growls when I play with her. And she has NEVER growled at me other then playing. So good luck!

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nutan
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Registered: Feb 2004

posted 02-25-2004 08:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for nutan     Edit/Delete Message
i agree with what marcia has to say....i have a dobie which is about 2 and 1/2 months old too..he lies on his back likes it when i rub his chest...what doe sit mean!!

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knobbles
Member

Posts: 61
From:Australia
Registered: Feb 2004

posted 02-25-2004 09:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for knobbles     Edit/Delete Message
Yes, I am intending to take her to puppy school.
Marcia I'm wondering what this means: Z factored white.
I met both the parents and they were extremely affectionate, nuzzling up to us and licking us, very affectionate I thought as we had never met these dogs before. They had also grown up with two young kids, and were great with them. We have not let her on beds/ furniture, our other dog is not allowed to so we have to enforce this. We have had her now for about 3 weeks. It was mentioned in a thread a while back that she seems to be already establishing herself as top dog over our other one.

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Marcia McLean-Jasinski
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Posts: 63
From:USA - New York
Registered: Nov 2003

posted 02-25-2004 09:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marcia McLean-Jasinski     Edit/Delete Message
If you look at her AKC papers at the welping number should say something like Wp and numbers do any of them say WZ that would be a white Doberman line. if the parents seems sound right in the head sounds like you have an extreamly dominate girl on your hands. just keep her in line. and you should be fine. but that is something new to see a 3 month old try to take over the pack man you are going have your hands full with that one. Dont play any tugging games with her and make her work for all treats sit down come no freebies for a while. she is testing you right now and is trying to see what her boundries are. firm, fair,consistant treatment will bring her around.

MJ
JKKs Euro Dobermans

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Marcia Jasinski
JKKsdobermans@cs.com http://ourworld.cs.com/jkksdobermans/myhomepage/dog.html
owned
by Angus(Latvia) Kleo(Russia), Ginger and BellaDonna (Plus her 9 new pups)

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Jamiya
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Posts: 1392
From:
Registered: Sep 2003

posted 02-26-2004 07:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jamiya     Edit/Delete Message
I disagree about the alpha roll. This is a misconception. It does not demonstrate your dominance - it only demonstrates that you are a bully. Dogs do not "roll" a more submissive dog - the submissive dog OFFERS the behavior voluntarily. Alpha rolling a potentially aggressive dog is a surefire way of CREATING a truly aggressive dog, or a fear-biter.

However, it does sound like you need to establish who is boss. Your puppy is making her displeasure known to you, and you must in turn show her that is not acceptable. Do not punish her for growling, though, as that is an appropriate warning signal.

Practice the "nothing in life is free" attitude with your puppy. Teach her to sit or perform some other trick before she gets ANYTHING that she wants - to go outside, to eat, to go for a walk, to play with a toy - everything she values. The down is a more submissive position than a sit, so even better would be to teach her down and then make her down to earn the things she wants. Vary the amount of time she has to stay in the down, and keep in mind that she is just a puppy.

The thing about not allowing her on the bed or on furniture is your choice. The key is to make sure she is trained to get on and OFF the furniture. If a dog will get off at your request, then you are not going to have a dominance issue.

Also, female versus male is no indication of dominance or aggression. A female can be just as aggressive as a male, and males can be submissive.

I recommend reading "The Other End of the Leash" by Patricia McConnell.


Jamiya

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Marcia McLean-Jasinski
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Posts: 63
From:USA - New York
Registered: Nov 2003

posted 02-26-2004 08:26 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marcia McLean-Jasinski     Edit/Delete Message
I dont know what kind of dogs you have, but with dobermans they most certaintly do knock the pup upside down I see this all day long with mine. all 3 of my females and my male does this to the puppies. You had better dominace roll her and quick before she gets to big to do this and yet anther dog ends up in the pound for being uncontrolable. with a pup you can do this safely we are not talking about a 4 year old do here. You wanna see some dogs alpha rolling thier pups you come look at mine. I dont care what somebody in a book has to say i am here with my pups every litter from the time they are born till the time they go home and i do watch and see how my dogs teach them and this works well! you may not agree with it but fact is that is how mom and dad do it and i have done this always with mine. my 2 younger females will go up by themselves on command BUT THEY ARE submissive by nature. my red female and my Male will not and need a reminder every so often. You make it sound like we are beating the dog it does not hurt the dog at all to do this and it works well. At 3 months you can teach this puppy down and sit and you hould teach her on top of a table so she is not backing off on you makes it much easier on your back as well. This is an aggressive dominate breed by nature and yes their are hundreds of different training methods and every method does not work on every dog. this pup needs to be put in its place and quickly because she is getting bigger.my pups are all held on the back from 2 weeks up and handled head to toe to prevent his kind of thing from happening. but some breeders just throw thier dogs in a basement, barn where ever and let the female do everything. mine are here in my living room and part of the family from the start. I watch i learn and i read everything I can get my hands on or mouse on for 2- 3 hours a day. and you better belive their are many many sucessful people who train this way because it is speaking the dogs language.
Marcia
JKKsEuro Dobermans

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Marcia Jasinski
JKKsdobermans@cs.com http://ourworld.cs.com/jkksdobermans/myhomepage/dog.html
owned
by Angus(Latvia) Kleo(Russia), Ginger and BellaDonna (Plus her 9 new pups)

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Jamiya
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Posts: 1392
From:
Registered: Sep 2003

posted 02-26-2004 08:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jamiya     Edit/Delete Message
I wasn't going to respond, but I feel compelled to say that Patricia McConnell is a behaviorist that specializes in aggressive dogs and has worked with hundreds of them, so I think she knows what she is doing.

I also feel compelled to mention that there are also many successful trainers who earn their dogs' respect and obedience without fear and bullying. While either method may work, I prefer the one where my relationship with the dog is not damaged in the process. Each to their own.

If youa re truly interested in reading and learning, I highly recommend you read "The Other End of the Leash" by Patricia McConnell and "Bones Would Rain from the Sky" by Suzanne Clothier. Notice in Clothier's book how her training methods migrate for the "traditional" methods to more humane methods. Both authors are very aware of how to speak "dog" and do things in a way the dogs will understand.

A good trainer is constantly evolving and learning new methods. Keep an open mind and read the material before passing judgement. Your way may work just fine, but there might be an even better way if you are open to it.


Jamiya

[This message has been edited by Jamiya (edited 02-26-2004).]

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knobbles
Member

Posts: 61
From:Australia
Registered: Feb 2004

posted 02-26-2004 12:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for knobbles     Edit/Delete Message
She has no papers as she just came from a family that had two dobes and bred them. I feel a bit bad now for saying that with all the talk about finding proper breeders and such, but it all seemed fine to me when I went there, caring people and good clean conditions.
Anyway....
I'm not sure I understand the "roll" are you supposed to do it at any time? Or after she's been naughty? Also does rolling over by her own will mean she's being submissive- even if she's just asking for a belly rub? I thought she was establishing herself as the leader over my other dog because she takes his toys, his bed and whatever, but now I'm not so sure if when she gets up to go on his bed whether she just wants to sleep with him, and when she takes the toys I think she's just trying to play- and my other dog just gives it up because he's not used to playing with toys with other dogs. When they used to play and he'd get a bit rough, she would roll over, but I haven't seen that for about a week.
Thanks for the info on NILIF. So far she only knows sit so I have some training to do.
Jamiya- you say not to punish her when she growls, wouldn't she just keep doing it if I don't?
I haven't noticed anything else apart from the growling, she does sit before I feed her, and she occasionally gets on the couch, but if I tell her to get off she does, and sometimes she'll get off first because she knows I'm coming. Is there any other behaviour I should look out for?
Marcia- when you say I shouldn't baby her does that mean ever?
Look out puppy school!!!

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puggleowner
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Posts: 228
From:Grand Rapids, MI
Registered: Nov 2003

posted 02-26-2004 01:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for puggleowner     Edit/Delete Message
I agree that you need to let your pup know that the growling must stop, but I also do not agree with the "rolling" thing- in my opinion it will only make your pup scared of you-- it's not about scaring a puppy into submission, it's about teaching- not forcing-them to learn respect.

I have a very dominant dog- she has attempted to boss around almost every dog she has ever met, whether they be 9 pounds or 90. She has, however, learned that my husband and I are dominate over her, but not in a fearful way. I think I posted about this awhile ago, not sure, but Cameron started showing signs of dominance towards us when we tried to take her toys away- she would growl. So what we did was use a squirt bottle..everytime she would growl when we tried to take away a toy we would squirt her-nothing scary or painful, but dogs usually don't like being squirted. Then, if we took the toy away and she didn't growl, we would praise her to let her know we approved of her behavior. A few weeks of this and she hasn't growled at us since.

We have never pinned, hit, used shock collars or any of the like, and our dominant dog has grown up to be very respectful of us. There are many other ways out there to teach your dog obediance besides instilling fear in them. How you choose to raise your dog is up to you, but I think these are important things to consider.

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Marcia McLean-Jasinski
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Posts: 63
From:USA - New York
Registered: Nov 2003

posted 02-26-2004 01:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marcia McLean-Jasinski     Edit/Delete Message
When I said dont baby her it was only in referance to when you are telling her to do something like come, sit down. If she is growling at you roll her till she goes still the start rubbing the belly and baby her once she is summiting. I do this with mine and most of them will come and roll quite willingly most of the time.It is all in how you teach the dog.as long as you are fair, and consistant. dobie do ot do well if treated unfairly if it is no now then latter yes the dog will get frustrated and confused. If she is getting on his bed when he is not there that is not trying to take over that is just i want a comfy place to sleep. and unfortunatly a lot gets lost in communication in an e-mail. so if you want you can call me anytime. if read and re read everything i can het my hands on. thier are so many different ways to teach the same thing. but someone said rolling a pup will make it not trust you that is soo untrue my pups and my dogs follow me everywhere in and off leash if they did not trust me they would not stay with me. so say what you will but a roll will do no harm to a puppy. and i did not tell him to put a zap coller on i dont use them on my dogs i dont have to. I said i know they do work for training and mentioned them to someone else but not here in this message . so you can stop tryimng to make me look like hitler. I am training 2 dogs for compitition in Shultz you can not get your dog to do this type of training if your dog does not trust you . o I am done arguing with you. If you dont agree you dont have to. but i am not going to argue about it. take what you want from it and throw the rest away. no body trains exactly the same way.

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Jamiya
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Posts: 1392
From:
Registered: Sep 2003

posted 02-26-2004 02:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jamiya     Edit/Delete Message
Let me reiterate that all dogs are different. My sister rolls her submissive Golden with no ill effects. I was told not to roll Nala because with a dog like her it would only make things worse - which was true. Just be very, very careful when you roll the dog if you choose to do it. You must not be angry or threatening or yelling. You must be calm, emotionless.
I still don't agree with rolling any dog, but that's up to you.

As far as the growling goes - someone with more experience needs to answer that. You don't want him to growl at you, but you don't want to punish him for growling because it is his way of communicating with you. A dog that is not allowed to growl may skip straight to biting.

You do want to get a handle on this right away while the dog is still young, before a real problem develops. You might want to look for a good behaviorist - one that uses positive methods and has experience with dominance and aggression issues - to help you out.


Jamiya

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susan_cude@hotmail.com
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Posts: 813
From:Santa Maria, Ca.
Registered: Nov 2003

posted 02-29-2004 01:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for susan_cude@hotmail.com     Edit/Delete Message
I don't want to open a can of worms here, but! My sister's shi tzu growls and has bitten her husband on several occasions because when he leans to kiss her bye, the dog growls at him. At first they thought it was cute! now that he has been allowed this behavior, he's not safe around anyone. We are a very touchy feely family, meaning we like to hug and kiss hello and goodbye, but you have to be careful at her house! cause you might get bit! I don't think any dog should be allowed to do this, unless he is protecting you from a stranger. Good luck with the training and I'm sure you'll do fine...Susan

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charmedagain
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Posts: 790
From:uk
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 02-29-2004 06:05 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for charmedagain     Edit/Delete Message
Marcia McLean-Jasinski, I appreciate you have been breeding dobies for a few years but please do not sugest that people are more likely to have an agression dominance problem with the males and that females are docile as this is just not true i can tell you this for nothing that a female is actually worse than a male.

My males will not try and push there luck with my females.

Alpha rolling any dog is going to cause probles as jamiya said if it does not make a agressive dog it sure is going to make the dog fear you and this is not what you want.

You can teach your dogs by using the treat method where as they get a treat everytime they do good.

My dogs sleep on my bed one of my females lays on the sofa and watches tv with me and there is no dominance or agression issues.

When walking up or downstairs my dogs have learnt i go first if they tried going before me i would put my hand infront of them and say no wait and they would.

Same as going through doors.
Feeding time the dogs learnt that the family eats first and them second they also know that when we all sit down to eat they are not to sit and watch they will usually go lie in the living room.

When a dog is upset or is just being annoyed by someone and it growls this should be taken as a warning to leave alone but all that needs to be said is no.

When a dog is being pushy you simply ignore the dog and go about what you were doing or find something to do until the dog realises he/she cant be pushy.

There is many ways to train a dog without using this stupid alpha roll it may work for you but its just not something everyone should do and i would advice against it.

When training in needs to be known from the start that you will not take pushiness or a dog that just wont listen.

Patience is the key and the more time spent training the dog the better it will become.

Mike

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knobbles
Member

Posts: 61
From:Australia
Registered: Feb 2004

posted 02-29-2004 12:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for knobbles     Edit/Delete Message
Thanks Mike for your advice there. You do many of the things I have already taught my other dog and am in the process of training the new one... such as leaving the room while we are eating, eating after us, and the only reason they aren't allowed on the furniture is because my partner thinks there should be comfortable places for us free of dog fur!!! But if it was up to me you know where they'd be lol.
Leela hasn't growled at me since I wrote the message, but then again I haven't been taking her away from things much either, although I did hold her the other day because she tries to steal Benders food if he doesn't finish before her, she wriggled in my arms but she didn't growl.
I am going to enrol her in puppy school although I'm not sure if I like the school we took Bender to... they use corrections such as choke chains and I like to train a dog using respect- not fear.
Jamiya- I am currently reading "The other end of the Leash" and am enjoying it, thanks for the reference.
Bender growls quite a bit at Leela, because she's usually always in the mood for playing and he isn't- that's another reason why I thought maybe he is teaching her to be like that. Hopefully when she grows out of that crazy puppy stage she won't be so annoying to him. I tell him "no" when he does it, but I guess it's his way of telling her he's had enough.

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Jamiya
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Posts: 1392
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Registered: Sep 2003

posted 02-29-2004 01:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jamiya     Edit/Delete Message
I'm glad you like the book so far!

I wouldn't correct the dogs for growling at each other, as long as their actions are appropriate. If Leela is pestering Bender to play, it is perfectly acceptable in dog-ease for Bender to growl at Leela (and use other body language as well). Leela should then back off or show some other form of appeasement to Bender.

Observe them and get to know their body language! When you finish the book, try "Bones Would Rain From the Sky" by Suzanne Clothier.


Jamiya

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