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Author Topic:   Kibbles n Bits
Bengal Lover
Member

Posts: 50
From:Seattle WA USA
Registered: Sep 2003

posted 09-08-2003 03:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bengal Lover     Edit/Delete Message
To baby snickers, who said Kibbles 'n Bits is a good food for small dogs, I think you might want to read your food labels and use the guidelines from Danelover up above. Just because the commercials on TV say that a food is AAFCO approved doesn't mean that the food is a quality product. Also, just because your animals eat it, doesn't mean it's healthy. Would you eat twice a day every day at McDonald's or Burger King? That's what it is like to feed your animal foods available at the grocery store (Kibbles n Bits, Iams, Purina, etc). You may feel OK and you might live, but down the road I guarantee you will have problems.

Also, about Science Diet...Vets recommend Science Diet because they are taught with materials published by Science Diet. They don't know any better. It is up to you, the consumer, to do your research and find the best available food for your animal. Some vets are more up to date than others. You can ask for their opinion, but don't take it as the gospel truth. If you wouldn't eat it, don't let your dog or cat eat it.

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nessa1880
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Posts: 132
From:Tucson, AZ
Registered: Jul 2003

posted 09-08-2003 04:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for nessa1880     Edit/Delete Message
What do you think about Royal Canin? I just switched my 7 month old toy poodle over to this brand. She is eating the Mini since she is a toy breed.

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Bengal Lover
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Posts: 50
From:Seattle WA USA
Registered: Sep 2003

posted 09-08-2003 08:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bengal Lover     Edit/Delete Message
I think that was a very good move. I would watch Royal Canin, though, over the next couple of years. Make sure their ingredients don't just happen to change. Right now, they are fabulous, although they do use corn and a lot of animals have issues with that. Mars, Inc. (an enormous corporation) bought them. This is what happened to Iams and their quality of food took a turn for the worse. Royal Canin still looks good and the Mini is great for little dogs. It has a 30% reduced salt content for their little hearts. So, just watch it, but for now you're OK.

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Jamiya
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Posts: 1392
From:
Registered: Sep 2003

posted 09-09-2003 07:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jamiya     Edit/Delete Message
My dog ate Science Diet right up until she died of old age. She never had to go to the vet - just had vaccinations every year and kept current on heartworm medication.

What's supposed to be wrong with Science Diet?


Jamiya

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Bengal Lover
Member

Posts: 50
From:Seattle WA USA
Registered: Sep 2003

posted 09-09-2003 01:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bengal Lover     Edit/Delete Message
The problem with Science Diet is that they don't use very high quality ingredients. If you notice the ingredient label.....

Corn meal, chicken by-product meal (including white meat, dark meat, liver and other internal organs), soybean meal, animal fat (preserved with BHA, propyl gallate and citric acid), natural flavor, vegetable oil, dried egg product, flaxseed, preserved with BHT and BHA, minerals (iodized salt, calcium carbonate, ferrous sulfate, zinc oxide, copper sulfate, manganous oxide, calcium iodate, sodium selenite), vitamins (choline chloride, vitamin A supplement, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin E supplement, niacin, thiamine, calcium pantothenate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, riboflavin, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12 supplement).

I think that speaks for itself. I don't think you want to feed your dogs mostly corn and vague protein meal. The preservatives are the worst part. BHA and BHT are forms of fromaldehyde (sp.?) and animal fat is an extremely vague term. What kind of animal is preserving your dog food? Soybean meal has minimal nutritional value, and is used as mostly filler. Science Diet has a huge lock on the market and especially veterinarians. Everything a vet learns is published by Science Diet. They have to go and take special classes to keep up to date on nutrition. Most vets will not buy into anything but Science Diet and it's a pity. Some of the more progressive vets might be able to give you better advice. I've also heard that Science Diet does animal testing. So, I hope that's a good reason for you.

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puttin510
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Posts: 1179
From:,Calif. U.S.A.
Registered: Dec 2002

posted 09-09-2003 04:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for puttin510     Edit/Delete Message
I agree with bengal lover. This subject definatley is not a new one here. But in defense of others. They learn from reading this type of information. I knew nothing when I first at got my dogs but have changed my ways. We serve Innova in our home. I give all the posters credit for being here and for sometimes being under fire. It is a learning process. People sometimes give what they can afford to their pets, it does not mean they love them any less. They are here to learn, just as I am.

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Bengal Lover
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Posts: 50
From:Seattle WA USA
Registered: Sep 2003

posted 09-09-2003 09:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bengal Lover     Edit/Delete Message
I am in agreement. I get a little carried away sometimes and didn't mean to discourage anyone. I hope that it was at least informational and that the information will be passed on to others.

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GoodboysBaddogs
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Posts: 409
From:Los Angeles, Ca.
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 09-10-2003 12:50 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for GoodboysBaddogs     Edit/Delete Message
What..? Kibbles-n-Bits is GOOOOOOD!!!!
Mann, i don't know what your talking about,
I eat that stuff!!!------------LOL!!!!!
No-Offense-Two-Anyone.

Yeah, lables are important. Still can be iffy though.
From my understanding, and what i'm currently feeding and believing in is:
-human-grade dog food-
It's considered the 2nd best thing you could feed your dogs, and the 1st best type of kibble.
Of corse 1st would be REAL HUMAN FOOD.
Some put their dogs on whats called a 'BARF' diet. There are different ways & diets.
I've only touched the surface as to how to approach this whole style of feeding.
It's not as easy as it sounds.
Remember, their diet should be Quality & Complete, daily.

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Jamiya
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Posts: 1392
From:
Registered: Sep 2003

posted 09-10-2003 07:08 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jamiya     Edit/Delete Message
My problem is, I don't think it is appropriate to judge a food by what a human likes to eat. Dogs are not humans. I understand the preservatives and by-products and things are bad....but I saw an ad on TV for a cat food that is palatable for humans and I couldn't help thinking that it needs to be palatable (and good for) a cat!

Dogs in the wild eat raw meat. I would not like to eat raw meat. I am not a dog.

I get so frustrated trying to do what is right for my pets. I feed them Science Diet because I was always told it is the best, and now it is not. But none of my pets have ever had a problem with it and they are all extremely healthy.

The majority of the dog toys in the stores have some sort of problem with them, according to all the things I have read....squeakers come out and can be choked on, the fibers from rope bones cause intestinal problems (I assume plush toys would have the same problem), marrow bones can break their teeth....the list just goes on. Wire crates are good because they can see out.....but they are bad because they can get hurt on them. Every product has some dangerous aspect to it and it frustrates the heck out of me! My husband thinks I am crazy. He grew up with dogs and they gave them all sorts of things and none of them ever had any problems.

I went through all of this with my mice as well. Don't give them this, that is bad, this cage is bad, they need such-and-such. There is nowhere to turn. It seems to me that you need to manufacture your own products if you want things to be safe for your pets.

I just want to enjoy my animals. I want them to be healthy and happy. I don't want to stress every day that everything they touch is going to hurt them, or I should be feeding them something different, or....whatever. It just doesn't seem right that a pet should inspire more doubt and uncertainty than a child.

Frustrated,
Jamiya

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puttin510
Member

Posts: 1179
From:,Calif. U.S.A.
Registered: Dec 2002

posted 09-10-2003 12:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for puttin510     Edit/Delete Message
Jamiya: It's true, all of the hype about the so many animal products can drive you bonkers. I try to give my dogs a food that is good and affordable, try to make sure they don't injest anything non-digestable. Thank god my two are not avid chewers of whatever is around. It all can make you crazy. Just do the best you can. If you believe in your heart that your dogs are doing great, then it should be fine enough for others and we should not judge. Even in the human grade kibbles a dog can be allergic to something in them. Allergies can be caused by many things not just lesser costing foods. Just do YOUR best. I know you love your dog, you would not be here if you did not.

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GoodboysBaddogs
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Posts: 409
From:Los Angeles, Ca.
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 09-10-2003 12:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for GoodboysBaddogs     Edit/Delete Message
Hello Jamiya,
First-off, i understand your frustration. And yes your right, there are ALOT of precautions that responsible owners are taking "these-days". I'm not calling you irrisponsible in any way. Your concern shows responsibility in itself. I'm not ever here to judge no-one. When i said "these days", i meant there was alot to learn from the past.
I'm not here to boast or brag w/ overconfidence that i'm providing the best, or better things for my dogs. You see, when it comes to "business" it's really alot about money. And when food companies say this & that, label this stamp that, etc., it's not necessarily all true. It's a business. You know, it's seems to me that you've probably never had to take care & treat an animal (dog) in need of medical attention. You mentioned that you've given them Science Diet all throughout their lives and had no problems what-so-ever, you know your really lucky. Yeah, i can say that too. My first dog, mann, we fed him all kinds of left-overs, w/ generic dog-food kibble. He was over weight, barely any excersise, and for one was a Boxer, prone to a number of health problems. He lived well past the breeds life expectancy. But through his death, only made me want to do better, as good as i could possibly handle financially. I now have 2 buddies, a Chinese Shar Pei, and an American Bulldog, and let me tell you i'm doing like you said,preety much taking care of them like a child. But not a healthy one, a sick one. And there are 2. Both having skin problems. Again, i understand you frustration on all that I & or other people have been posting about good health & care. But it's all for your understanding, we all want to enjoy the lives of our loving companions, and not have to deal w/ health problems,thats jsut natural. But when you have to it's really a DRAGGG! What we're al trying to do here is to understand, learn, and try to provide the best that we can & know. Again, i'm not trying to tell you how to care for your dog(s). If your doing fine, even good on something that alot have to disagree with, then so be it. Continue doing how you know, and what works for you & yours.
You obviously have good healthy genes in your dogs. The Choice is Yours, Stay Healthy!

------------------
...it's the understanding of what's wrong, when you only know how to do right...

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the_maine_pitbull
Member

Posts: 320
From:Allagash, Maine USA
Registered: Oct 2003

posted 09-10-2003 01:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for the_maine_pitbull     Edit/Delete Message
In my opinion.. if you cannot afford to feed a dog somethign that is good for them.. then you shouldn't have one... McDonald's food is USDA approved.. yet everyone is getting fat and trying to sue.. I personally wouldn't feed my dog Science Diet.. but that is just a personal opinion on my behalf. (They promote labratory testing on live animals-- I won't even use certain toothpaste for this reason..lol) Anyhow.. All of these foods might not be good, but to think there are dogs out there.. where I am from.. they have many hounds for bear tracking during hunting season. These are very active dogs and they feed them O'l Roy.. (Sawdust Balls is what I call it!) My dogs, eat Purina Puppy Chow and Pedigree foods. When they get older they go on to Pedigree's Lamb and Rice formulas for many reasons. It has always worked wonders for me.. and they love it.. I have considered the BARF diet, but it is for the birds in my opinion. However, I am a fond belvier of the NFL program..

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Bengal Lover
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Posts: 50
From:Seattle WA USA
Registered: Sep 2003

posted 09-10-2003 02:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bengal Lover     Edit/Delete Message
To maine pit bull...I have respect for you as a pet owner, but how can you not feed Science Diet, but feed PEDIGREE!?!?! Here's that ingredient list. Look at this and the one above for Sci Diet, and look up the definitions. By definition, Science diet is superior to Pedigree although I would never feed either one.

INGREDIENTS: GROUND YELLOW CORN, MEAT AND BONE MEAL, CORN GLUTEN MEAL, CHICKEN BY-PRODUCT MEAL, ANIMAL FAT (PRESERVED WITH BHA/BHT), WHEAT MILL RUN, NATURAL POULTRY FLAVOR, RICE, SALT, POTASSIUM CHLORIDE, CARAMEL COLOR, WHEAT FLOUR, WHEAT GLUTEN, VEGETABLE OIL, VITAMINS (CHOLINE CHLORIDE, dl-ALPHA TOCOPHEROL ACETATE [SOURCE OF VITAMIN E], L-ASCORBYL-2-POLYPHOSPHATE [SOURCE OF VITAMIN C*], VITAMIN A SUPPLEMENT, THIAMINE MONONITRATE [VITAMIN B1], BIOTIN, d-CALCIUM PANTOTHENATE, RIBOFLAVIN SUPPLEMENT [VITAMIN B2], VITAMIN D3 SUPPLEMENT, VITAMIN B12 SUPPLEMENT), TRACE MINERALS (ZINC SULFATE, COPPER SULFATE, POTASSIUM IODIDE).

Everything that comes before the fat/preservative is primarily what the food is made of.

To Jamiya...I understand your frustration because how can you know what's in a little brown kibble that looks the same as every other little brown kibble? You just have to do the research yourself and I work for a company that checks out all the food and cleanliness of the company before they decide to carry the product. Canidae, Wellness, Natural Balance, Precise, Royal Canin/ Sensible Choice, AvoDerm/ Pinnacle. All of these are great brands that have a really good reputation. I feed my cats a raw diet and they free feed off of a portioned amount of dry during the day. You should do some research on raw and make your own decision as to whether or not it's right for you. Most people can't afford to go all raw for dogs and use it as their wet food so that they still get some of the benefits. I am only able to do it because I currently have cats. But, I work in the pet industry and have had dogs all my life. Also there is a book out that EVERY PET OWNER SHOULD READ. It's titled Food Pets Die For. It's written by a concerned consumer, just like us and she really did her research. This should help you too.


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Seb
New Member

Posts: 7
From:Canada
Registered: Sep 2003

posted 09-10-2003 06:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Seb     Edit/Delete Message
I feed my dog Solid Gold food...
I dont know if anyone here knows about that food but to me, it seems to be the best one...but I'm no nutrition expert...
It's a bit more expensive...my dog eats 4 cups a day so it's about 35$ a month...witch is far from being expensive to my opinion.

Our dogs eat better than we do anyways!

Seb

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Seb
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From:Canada
Registered: Sep 2003

posted 09-10-2003 06:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Seb     Edit/Delete Message
oh yeah...here are the solid gold ingredients:
Lamb meal, ground millet, ground brown rice, ground barley, amaranth, rice bran oil, canola oil, flaxseed oil, rice bran, fish meal, garlic, blueberries, yucca schidigera extract, taurine, carotene, choline chloride, calcium carbonate, Vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, Vitamin A supplement, zinc proteinate, niacin supplement, folic acid, thiamine, pyridoxine hydrochloride, manganese proteinate, menadione, copper proteinate, ethylenediamine dihydriodide.

Seb

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Jamiya
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Posts: 1392
From:
Registered: Sep 2003

posted 09-10-2003 06:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jamiya     Edit/Delete Message
It's not that I can't afford to feed my animals whatever the "best" food is. It's that the "best" food changes on a daily basis! Even research can be skewed - findings are corrupt because of faulty methods, biased on purpose, whatever. I don't trust everything I read, but I do trust what I see for myself.

I do listen to what people say here. I am getting frustrated because I try to do everything right for my pets, but it seems like every time you think you are giving them the best, something turns out to be wrong with it.

I never want to have to experience a pet's injury or illness that was brought on by something I did or failed to do. If I know something is bad, I can't in good conscience give it to my animals. But I also can't be running around the state finding hard-to-find products every day and throwing out the product that was "best" yesterday.

I am not criticizing any of you. Keep the good information coming! Just realize that what "they" say is best now may be something "they" say is harmful 5 years from now. Even doing your "own" research - this is really impossible. All you can do is read about other people's research and decide for yourself if they conducted the research in a valid way and if their results were a logical conclusion from the data. I've done scientific research and trust me, you can make the data say whatever you want.

So yes, I do treat my animals as well as my children. And I worry about them just as much. But there comes a time when you have to let go and just say "I am doing the best I can" and if something bad happens later, not blame yourself.

Heh, I had this same talk with my son when he decided to get his male mouse neutered and the little guy died under the anaesthetic. He made the best choice he could with the mouse's best interests at heart and evaluated the risks. Unfortunately, in this case it worked out badly, but hindsight is 20/20 and if we knew everything that was going to happen in advance we would never make mistakes!


Jamiya

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Seb
New Member

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From:Canada
Registered: Sep 2003

posted 09-10-2003 07:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Seb     Edit/Delete Message
I agree!
This is why I say dogs still eat better than us..
Do what you think is best...this is what I do. My in laws dog eats Science Diets and is 13 years old...in fabulous shape.

Cheers

Seb

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Jas

Moderator

Posts: 536
From:
Registered: May 2003

posted 09-11-2003 12:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jas     Edit/Delete Message
No one should be made to feel bad about the food they feed. We all try to do the best we can, some dogs thrive on foods other dogs do poorly on. The point is you can take two different dogs and feed one bottom line poor quality food and the other premium and they both may live to be a ripe old age. Food is one aspect of staying healthy, but environment, exercise, lifestyle and GENETICS all play a role.

I personally have several dogs thriving on a Real Food, aka Raw meat and bones, aka BARF diet. They love it - it works for them and me. I would never push this on anyone. In fact unless people have researched it somewhat - I hesitate recommending it, its not hard but does need to be balanced in the long run. I find more info and research is being done on this diet and it is becoming increasingly favorable. I do not give my dogs any processed food -- I simply like knowing *exactly* what my pooches are eating. That is what works for us and may not be right for another.

No sense in getting frustrated, there will always be someone in disagreement with the food we (as in any one of us) feed. You can't listen to everyone. Do some research, ask for opinions, talk to your vet and pet supply workers, do more research and make an informed decision based on what YOU feel is right! If dog doesn't do well, look into diet further, change food and go from there. Many of us here are always open to helping or answering food related questions whether they are asking about BARF, home cooked or kibble and YES, there are always risks in feeding any form of food.

What we feed our dogs is a personal choice and that should be respected here.
FWIW

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puttin510
Member

Posts: 1179
From:,Calif. U.S.A.
Registered: Dec 2002

posted 09-11-2003 08:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for puttin510     Edit/Delete Message
Well said on both ends Jamiya and Jas.

Seb, they sell solid gold out here in California. Looks to be very good. My dogs are small. I think the bag of Innova that I by generally lasts us about 4 months(could be wrong. But with the higher quality ingrediants you feed less. I think if I bought a 40 pound bag of dog chow and gave what the bag said I would be thru it much faster than the four months. So even though the stuff they do eat costs more it lasts longer.

If at all one of the best things one can do is to make sure their dogs food is not preserved with chemicals, Like BHA/BHT, Ethynoxyquin, and Naturox. A natural preservative is much better for them.

[This message has been edited by puttin510 (edited 09-11-2003).]

Also, here is some more food for thought. This is very informative and eay to understand. Tells what really is in our dogs foods. http://api4animals.org/petfood.htm

[This message has been edited by puttin510 (edited 09-11-2003).]

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Jamiya
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Posts: 1392
From:
Registered: Sep 2003

posted 09-11-2003 11:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jamiya     Edit/Delete Message
Nice article!

Okay, so to boil it down to the bottom line. If my dog eats Science Diet and is not having any problems, should I switch foods? If I wait for a problem to develop (assuming one ever does), is it then too late to correct by switching foods? Is there something I could look for to indicate that perhaps the dog is not getting what she needs from the food?

My cats eat prescription diet for urinary tract infections. They have been eating it for over 10 years. They are 12 years old and as healthy and active as kittens. I am afraid to switch their food and chance more urinary tract infections in the male.


Jamiya

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Seb
New Member

Posts: 7
From:Canada
Registered: Sep 2003

posted 09-11-2003 11:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Seb     Edit/Delete Message
To my opinion, if your dog is doing fine on science diet, you can stick to it.
It's still considered as a good quality food.
It's your call..I have seen many dogs eating Science Diets all their lives and never have any problems whatsoever.

Some people disagree, some agree, it's just hard to figure out. I usually try to avoid weird preservatives in food.
I read the labels, make a choice and stick to it if all goes well.
Solid Gold works perfectly for me...I wont change even if someone tells me it's crap (unless my dog gets sick or somethin)..I chose to the best of my knowledge.
If you feel confident with Science Diet, stick to it.

it's just my opinion...
It's impossible that everyone will agree.
It works for some dog, it does not for others...if to the best of your knowledge Science Diet suits your dog, I say stick to it.

Seb

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puttin510
Member

Posts: 1179
From:,Calif. U.S.A.
Registered: Dec 2002

posted 09-11-2003 11:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for puttin510     Edit/Delete Message
When I first saw all of those brands that I had never heard of , I thought gee I've never heard of them they must not be good. I mentioned it to the store personel and she said there are certain people that want natural food. And I just said oh I don't need that. Boy was I wrong. For me, I started out with science diet nearly three years ago. The reason I stopped was because my terrier had terribly itchy skin, so onward I went to find something that made it better. On to Eukanuba, then Avoderm. none of these things worked. Also by then I noticed Sasha,(poodle) had some digestive things going on. Her stomache was always gurling and she was always kind of burping what smelled like undigested food. So I was just going to go by some of that digestive enzymes powder, but the lady at the pet supply place suggest Innova. Instead of adding the extra stuff in it. So I tried it and low and behold Rufus stopped his itchiness and Sasha's tummy was better. I did not even know about all the food issues until I started learning things online. So, If you notice anything like dry flaky skin, low energy levels, dull coats. Those would be tell tale signs of a better food needed. And if just for the sake of giving your beloved dog, meat that is not from a cancerous, sick animal. And the preservatives that can cause cancer. Those would be good reasons to change. You know with the higher quality foods you feed less because they are packed with good quality ingrediants. Not alot of fillers. It makes me feel better to know that I am giving my dog more of the good stuff instead of mostly corn fillers etc. which can fatten up a dog quick. It is true that our dogs eat better than us human do. I won't give my dog stuff with preservatives. But me I eat it up not even thinking about it. I think I need to. Another reason I give them what I do is because a dog obviuosly doesn't live as long as humans and I want to prolong their lives as long as I possibly can simply because they enhance my life and I love them dearly. When my kids are grown, its my dogs that will be with me, (hopefully my hubby too) But they deserve the best, because they give love unconditionally.

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Jamiya
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posted 09-11-2003 12:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jamiya     Edit/Delete Message
Wait....low energy level....so if I feed my puppy inferior food it may make her calm down....?

Hehe, just kidding!

I will look into Innova. I searched online and found one place that sells it here, although it is a bit of a drive - I'm surprised there aren't others. I can usually find just about anything I need around here.


Jamiya

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GoodboysBaddogs
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Posts: 409
From:Los Angeles, Ca.
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 09-11-2003 06:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for GoodboysBaddogs     Edit/Delete Message
Hey Jas:

You always seem to be able to just break it all down nicely, & well understood. Good writing... It's obiously important for you to come in & clear it all up... Thanks Again

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the_maine_pitbull
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Posts: 320
From:Allagash, Maine USA
Registered: Oct 2003

posted 09-11-2003 08:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for the_maine_pitbull     Edit/Delete Message
HEy!! See the thing is just how Jas said it.. Each dog is different so of course different foods work for different dogs... I hav ehad good luck with Purina and Pedigree over Science Diet and Eukanuba, Iams, all those other things.. they aren't big on all natural.. Of course... Jas aka: Hero of The Day explained this all in more detail and all.. lol.. OKay.. I just lost my train of thought. Jon (boyfriend) is sitting here plkaying guitar and said "Wow I have got quite the audience" I look over to see the dogs sitting there just staring at him play.. too cute.. wish I got a pic of that... Too cute.. anyhow.. whatever I was saying.. lol.. every dog is different..
Ang

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fleafly
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Posts: 996
From:sheridan, wy
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 09-11-2003 11:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for fleafly     Edit/Delete Message
I asked my vet recently about what foods to use. She feeds her own dogs Purina One. She had them on other foods and they didn't do well on them. I think each dog is different, my grandmas dog could only eat Science Diet. If my vet uses Purina One, then I think it's good enough for my doggies.

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puttin510
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Posts: 1179
From:,Calif. U.S.A.
Registered: Dec 2002

posted 09-13-2003 03:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for puttin510     Edit/Delete Message
There are many good foods out there, I chose Innova, but there are many more. Find a store close enough so its not a hassle, that carries the quality stuff and go there. I don't want anyone to think that I think only Innova is the best and all the rest sucks. Not true. Lots to choose from.

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