posted 12-30-2003 03:32 PM         

quote:

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How many reputable kennels do you know that only breed for size or color? I'm sure slim to none.

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posted 12-31-2003 10:08 AM         

Because is what makes the APBT what it is. Kennels that breed specifically for this trait, breed working dogs for the []. They don't care about conformation really, all they care about is it has the ability, endurance, and gameness. Majority of these dogs on their yards will be somewhat rangier and not have the blocky big head appearance because they are NOT bred for that. A gamebred dog coming straight from a dogman's yard is probably the most temperamentally sound dog you will ever find.

"What im saying is, every breeder breeds for certain traits or charachteristics, what makes a game breeders program better than a breeder who prefers larger size?"

Because someone who just breeds for size usually isn't doing it right. If someone is just breeding for massive head and chest, then thats all they are gonna look for. They aren't gonna do the proper health tests or temperament tests. Most of the time these breeders that are breeding for massive size are blue breeders and breeding blue to blue, which is a major NO NO. OR they are mixing in another breed such as bullmastiff, to get that larger head and chest look. The so called "low riders" out there, that have huge heads and chests, but are extremely short. Do you think they are doing HD tests? Probably not.

"And I know these dogs are game simply because of the fact that gameness is also one of the charachteristics that they are bred for. Our goal is to breed a more powerful, more beautiful dog, with all of the same game qualities as the original pits."

posted 12-31-2003 04:35 PM         

That NOT true at all. I guess it would be HARD to prove either way since their isn't like documented evidence of illegal activies just laying around. BUT I do know some idiots who try to breed large dogs with gameness and test them. If they are small enough to put on a gamebred dog they are stopped. Some jump the Pit screaming and running AWAY. They are NOT a game dog and quit in a hard test. I'm NOT saying all as size isn't what makes a dog game. I'm not saying a small dog is gamer than a dog that is bigger. But the way the dog is bred is really different. What you just said makes no sense only because by not breeding game dogs you loose gameness. Look at the AmStaff they are not nearly as game as even curr bred Pit Bulls. AmStaffs are not used for fighting any more unless its by a real hairbrained idiot. I read a story that was about a very game dog, and about his life. His onwer was approached by someone with a part AmStaff to test the dog he said was hot and great and blah blah. Finally after convincing and another owner telling the guy the Staff dog was really a game dog and had been rolled such and such a times he put them together. The dog was ghetto rolled, in street fights and it didn't quit then. But it showed it was truly a rank curr once being placed with the game dog. The same goes for the dogs bred solely for their size. The people DON'T game test their dogs. Ones who do end of dissapointed or purposely "test" against their own stock and other dogs like that. They usually don't even look at the dog longer than 10 minutes. Even if the dog quits and is a curr they still breed it. Its true. I know of a man, didn't know him personally though. But he had larger dogs, these were actually good looking dogs though with decent conformation. But he would roll some of his for like 10 minutes then think they are good enough to breed. These dogs were 50-60lbs. He rolled male for 15 minutes once and it quit but he just kept on breeding it. Then maybe two of his offspring turned out to be game. If you even want to call it that. They were never placed with anything serious even though other people owned them they still never gave the dogs a hard test. Really think about what you are saying. What you said would mean that showbred, pullbred, pet bred, BYB bred and gamebred dogs are all equal in gameness. Even some of the show bred dogs that have come from game stock but then used for showing for a couple generations yields a good majority of currs. If you pick out the good ones from those lines, bred them then culled you could get back to breeding truly, good game dogs again. I think that is the problem the other breeders don't cull the quiters, the dog is pretty so the breed it, or the dog pulls well so they breed it. You can SEE the difference in the other breeders who full around with testing their stock but are not into it. Let alone ones bred just for size, color, looks, they are all going to be the same. Some people clain to breed game blue dogs. If the dogs have always quit just as long as they have been rolled they still say they are game dogs and breed them.

Yes there is exceptions both ways. And some dogs are short winded including gamebred small dogs. Thats why I believe CONFORMATION iS IMPORTANT. Some breeders breed ONLY for gameness despite a major, unhealthy fault. To me they are just as wrong as someone who breeds, overly large, badly conformed dogs just because they are blue. Breeding game dogs does mean that gameness is the purpose for breeding, but when the set up and conformation of the dog is unhealthy and takes away from the dog the breeder should still know the dog must be culled no matter how game it shows to be. There was a site with a dog called Hall's Damage, his legs were bowed, his feet were pointed out and like flippers. He was a mess, horrible looking and those things cause him problems and will def. cause major problems when he is older. The owners still want to breed him, still have even though he is like that. Just because he is game, they won't cull him like they should. It doesn't surprise me the dog is one of Halls. From what I've seen Halls dogs have major problems and he seems to only be peddling pups off a name he made a long time ago with some good dogs he had from dogs he aquired else where. Now he just breeds and sells pups. Poorly bred pups, despite the fact they are not huge and are "gamebred" not sure if he does still really test his stock. They are usually bow legged, shallow chested, long and even top heavy. The dogs must also have knee and joints problems among all those other problems. If someone is breeding show dogs for looks, I have NO PROBLEM with that. Its when they breed dogs with problems, just because they are large, have a certain nose or coat color, even though they have BAD conformation with HD or bowed leggs. Or temperment problems.

True to the exceptions but a shallow chest dog is GOING to be short winded. Lots of people breeding bigger dogs bred dogs with shallow chest and keep breeding them togther, so all those dogs will be shortwinded.

"Saying that these dogs are not athletes is like saying a 300lb football player is not an athlete."

This is a little different than with dogs. A smaller individual in most cases makes a better athelete than a larger individual. And again it goes back to conformation. How is the person put together. Some people who are 300lbs can barely walk up the stairs and look overweight. Others do make pretty good athelets and also are TALLER and have a LARGER bone structures. As some dogs do have, but sometimes the weight is too much for their knees and hips if they are just bred for large size with regards to confo and health. I have seen some larger agile dogs. Bullyson was 60lbs CW a big dog.

And also people play sports becuase they want to and train hard. They train hard and enjoy what they do and yes many do have natural talent for it. But dogs are specifically bred for it, they don't get to choose what they want to do or what they would enjoy. If they don't they are culled. Size had nothing to do with gameness its true. A football player also isn't game like the dogs were are talking about even if they are athletic. The people breeding dogs for size don't tend to care too much about the gameness of the dog, even if it were to be aggressive or could still be athletic.

"you fail to realize that these are the same breed of dog that all of the dog men have on there yard, just on a larger scale. They have the same determination or "gameness" as any other pit, because it's in ther genes, There "pitbulls" for crying out loud."

I don't want to repeat myself all over again and make an even longer post, but just because the dog is the breed-American Pit Bull Terrier doesn't mean it is going to be game. That is a bizzare statement to me. Otherwise we could just take all the AmStaffs and they would be just as game. NOT, becaue they are not bred for it. They may be the same breed but NOT the same temperment, and breedings. Like their are working shepherds and strickly show shepherds who people try to work and they only disgrace them. Working Rottweilers doing protection that the show Rotties wouldn't be able to take, and then that the larger bred Rotts bred for size wouldn't have the correct temperment to preform. All the same breed, but NOT the same. They are different in their abilities from one another. Goldens that retrieve ducks with very little training, others scared to death of water since day one and don't know what to do with a duck. Guess its not the size that is the thing, its the breeding. But they are breeding large dogs, not game dogs. Like if they were breeding pull dogs. I've seen quitter become aces.

And all larger dogs are prone to health problems. Even breeds that are naturally larger in size. Like the AmBulldogs, Bullmastiff, English Mastiff, even the Great Dane which isn't as "heavy" as a breed.

posted 12-31-2003 05:18 PM         

On another note, talking about Bobby Hall. OMG, I can't believe he sells crap like that and he's a well-known breeder of gamebred dogs. That 'flipper' dog you are referring to is not the 1st one to come out of his line. Poor thing. The guy more or less said he felt sorry for the dog, but he is so game, he has decided NOT to waste it and will be breeding him. (oh boy)...You should post a picture of it so people can see. I think they had it on the lar-san board just recently if you want to pick it up.. lol..