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Author Topic:   Back Yard Breeding
PitNest
Member

Posts: 26
From:Austin ,Texas, USA
Registered: Nov 2003

posted 11-25-2003 11:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for PitNest     Edit/Delete Message
Greetings,
I'm pretty new on this board but I've noticed an overwhelming amount of people against back yard breeding. I myself also feel strongly against this. Here's my reason for this post... I'm not exactly sure what people are using as their definition of BYB. When I think of back yard breeding I think of the following..

-People who are uneducated in the breed
-People who breed just for money and not for any other purpose (i.e. Love for the breed, bettering the breed etc.)
-People who think it's cool to mix different breeds randomly just to see "what comes out!"
-People who breed just for the experience

I'm sure If I sit and think long enough I could muster up many more reasons that I personally find unacceptable. Like I've posted in the past, I do actually generously donate to pet adoption agencies on a regular basis and am fully aware of the ungodly amount of over population in the K-9 world. I also realize that their are many unqualified, and uneducated people breeding their pits or pit mixes for all the wrong reasons which results in helping to cause a bad name or reputation for our particular breed of dog.
However, what I can't say I particularly understand the immediate jump or accusations of BYB every time someone that’s not a registered breeder has a litter. I'm by no means calling anyone out or saying that I haven't read plenty of posts where the accusation of BYB wasn't entirely necessary. I know I've seen a few post myself that amaze me and make me shake my head as well. I guess what I'm getting at is simply that I think that there are definitely situations where people might be particularly fond of a certain dog etc. and might want to have the dog breed for the pups even though the dog breeder might not be a Registered Breeder.
I know this is going to raise a lot of emotions and opinions in people so I want it to be known that I AM IN NO WAY CONDONING BACK YARD BREEDING!!!! And I'm not calling anyone’s opinion WRONG. I know that there are boat loads of facts that can be brought up to support peoples opinions. I'm simply saying that I don't know if I'm fully against anyone breeding their dogs just because they aren't a registered breeder. Just wanted to hear some input so I can pick peoples brains on this subject and maybe have a better understanding of the general consensus on this topic. Any input would be greatly appreciated,

Trae

[This message has been edited by PitNest (edited 11-26-2003).]

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neek
Member

Posts: 291
From:Australia
Registered: Oct 2003

posted 11-26-2003 01:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for neek     Edit/Delete Message
Ok, the reason I'm against BYB is because I've seen so many people breed their pitbulls and haven't got a clue! I was guilty of it myself ONCE because I was under the impression that the best time to breed a dog was when they were bleeding, I took my dog for a walk about a week after she stopped bleeding, another dog got to her (while I was standing there trying to shoo it away) they were stuck together for about 40 minutes and exactly 8 weeks to the day, she had 11 pups, 5 of which that died because Jess attacked them and because I didn't have a clue how to help them!! I had to learn in the space of an hour or so how to hand raise the remaining six, constant trips to the vet, which resulted in a finding out one of the runty pups had a cleft palate. (he died)
Speaking of runts, the vet told me that there should NOT be a "runt" in the litter at all, they should all be big healthy pups that are around the same size.
My boyfriends mate's dog just had pups and HE didn't have a clue!

It's not fair that people breed just for the hell of it or for the reasons that you have stated above, I've spoken to many registered breeders and all of whom have vast experience in breeding their dogs which they have learned from other registered breeders. Some are even vets themselves!! There dogs are in good hands and the mortality rate in pups is extremely low.

Now, why do people want to breed? Wouldn't you want to buy a healthy, well-bred pup that is registered, health-tested, vaccinated and wormed?? Last but not least registered breeders find the best possible homes for their pups and can almost guarentee that their dogs won't end up in shelters because they ALWAYS take back a pup/dog that they have bred, that the owner has to give up for one reason or another. To me that is a responsible breeder!!!!

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goob
Member

Posts: 552
From:
Registered: Mar 2003

posted 11-26-2003 01:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for goob     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
I guess what I'm getting at is simply that I think that there are definitely situations where people might be particularly fond of a certain dog etc. and might want to have the dog breed for the pups even though the dog breeder might not be a Registered Breeder.

Yes, BUT even breeding a dog that you love doesn't mean that any of the pups will be the least bit like that dog. It also means that there will be up to 13 more pups who will need to be placed, unless of course you plan on keeping them all. IMO, a responsible breeder health tests their dogs (hips, eyes, patellas, thyroid, heart, and in some cases, ears) to be sure they aren't passing on genetic diseases that could cripple or kill the pups and cause heartbreak for the new owners. They also prove their dogs in some sort of performance event (agility, obedience, Schutzhund, Weight Pull, catch dog, at least one of them, preferably more), since APBTs are a working breed. Conformation titles are also a plus, but for me, not absolutely necessary. I also feel that temperament tests and therapy dog certs can say a lot about a dog, as well as the breeder's commitment to the breed, so they're another thing I consider in deciding whether or not a breeder is responsible or not. A breeder's attitude is also a major consideration when deciding whether or not they're responsible or not.... truly GOOD breeders are in it for the good of the breed, as well as their individual line. Each breeding will be a step towards improving their line, as well as the breed as a whole. Not just, "well, I love this dog, and this dog's pretty nifty looking/acting, think I'll breed 'em and see what happens"... good breeders plan ahead, and choose the best match so they can be sure to IMPROVE upon what they already have. A responsible breeder KNOWS where the pups they bred 10 yrs ago went to, if they were bred, what happened to those pups, what they've all accomplished. Of course, responsible breeders aren't the easiest thing to find, and most people don't/won't bother to look when it's so much easier to go to the local BYB.

The entire breed is banned in some places because of the actions of BYBs, and YES, that includes people who "just want a pup off their dog", because there are almost always at least a few other pups who are placed, and may go on to have pups, who may go on to have pups, eventually falling into the wrong hands and contributing to the downfall of the breed.

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Courtknee
New Member

Posts: 2
From:Austin ,Texas, USA
Registered: Nov 2003

posted 11-26-2003 04:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Courtknee     Edit/Delete Message
When I say "just want a pup off their dog" I don't mean it nearly as laid back as it's being taken. I mean that when I bred my dogs, before they were even born, I had over 15 well respected people in my workplace and in my family that all wanted a dog much like my male and female. I wanted one as well. We've had them both health tested and they are both high quality pure bred registered pits. I have bred a different kind of dog before (Ridgeback) and know what I'm doing. So again what Im getting at is that in a situation like mine, where the dogs are health tested, both expensive well bred registered dogs that all have great homes before their even born, I know what I'm doing coming from my mother being a vet, then I dont see the problem with it.


Trae

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neek
Member

Posts: 291
From:Australia
Registered: Oct 2003

posted 11-26-2003 04:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for neek     Edit/Delete Message
Then why don't you become a registered breeder?

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True_Pits
Member

Posts: 373
From:TX, USA
Registered: Oct 2003

posted 11-26-2003 09:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for True_Pits     Edit/Delete Message
Can I just ask. What is a registered breeder?

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Paradis
Member

Posts: 12
From:
Registered: Nov 2003

posted 11-26-2003 10:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Paradis     Edit/Delete Message
I strongly disagree with backyard breeding for one it is really really bad in my area right now the big fad is anything crossed with a poodle if you look in my newspaper you will see Boodles(boxerXpoodle) Borderdoodles(bordercollie poodle) even golden doodles(golden retriver poodle) it is crazy they are not doing anything for the breed they are all just follwing a fad the weirdest one I have seen yet is a shnorkiedoodle(shauzer, yorkie, poodle) they are just mutts and selling for pure bred prices it is rediculus if you are not doing anything to improve the breeding then why breed if you want a mixed dog go to a rescue group and why not just get your dog fixed to begin with if he/she has nothing to contribute to the breed itself, people are shocked when I tell them my red nose is neutered but he has too many problems to pass expecially allergies. Back yard breeders need to learn that if they aren't doing anything for a breed then stop breeding your dog to produce mutts.

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neek
Member

Posts: 291
From:Australia
Registered: Oct 2003

posted 11-26-2003 10:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for neek     Edit/Delete Message
A registered breeder is a breeder who has passed the standards of "normal" breeding. EG Knows the breed, has had their home evaluated and approved for breeding, has their dogs registered as a "true breed" as well as health tested and approved for actual breeding, if that makes sense??

The breeders are registered under the type of dog that they breed and are available for potential owners to contact country-wide. Some also show and compete their dogs.

You guys might do it different in America but thats what happens over here.

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goob
Member

Posts: 552
From:
Registered: Mar 2003

posted 11-26-2003 10:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for goob     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
I mean that when I bred my dogs, before they were even born, I had over 15 well respected people in my workplace and in my family that all wanted a dog much like my male and female. I wanted one as well. We've had them both health tested and they are both high quality pure bred registered pits.

Maybe I hold my standards too high, or hang out with the wrong crowd, but MOST people I know, I couldn't be paid enough to give a pup to (if I were a breeder). These people are, for the most part, good people, but NOT people who I would trust one of MY responsibilities to for the next 15 yrs. Like I said though, that may be an individual thing.

And by "health testing", I don't just mean having the vet look them over and give them the normal physical. Health testing involves taking the dogs to various specialists (unless you find a vet who does several of the tests, which would cut down some) to get them to do specific tests for inherited diseases, and usually sending them someplace to have them evaluated and compared with other members of the breed to see how they hold up against the average scores. Being purebred and registered means little in the grand scheme of things.... and "high quality" is basically in the eye of the beholder. That's why they have things like performance and conformation events... to take some of the personability out of things and make it easier to identify truly great dogs over "nice" dogs.

I'm sure you'll disagree, but things like this:

quote:
both expensive well bred registered dogs

Make your standards for breeding seem very low to me... like as long as the dog cost a good buck, and is registered, it's A-ok to breed away.

You aren't a "bad" person, or even a "bad" breeder for choosing to breed, but chances are that your dogs are not of the quality that SHOULD be being bred right now, considering the situation the breed is in.

quote:
Then why don't you become a registered breeder?

Neek, I dunno about over there, but in the US, breeders aren't registered, only dogs.

You may be talking about breed clubs, where breeders become members, have to stay within a certain code of ethics, etc, but the majority of breeders here don't bother with all that.

[This message has been edited by goob (edited 11-26-2003).]

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neek
Member

Posts: 291
From:Australia
Registered: Oct 2003

posted 11-26-2003 10:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for neek     Edit/Delete Message
I also agree with paradis. They seem to cross poodles with everything over here too. It's actually quite ridiculous and I can't believe they get away with selling them as pure strains of dog!!!!

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neek
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Posts: 291
From:Australia
Registered: Oct 2003

posted 11-26-2003 11:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for neek     Edit/Delete Message
If the actual breeders aren't registered over there then I guess it makes it heaps easier for backyard breeders to flog off their dogs.

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goob
Member

Posts: 552
From:
Registered: Mar 2003

posted 11-26-2003 11:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for goob     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
If the actual breeders aren't registered over there then I guess it makes it heaps easier for backyard breeders to flog off their dogs.

Yep. Anybody with an intact dog can let it with another and become a "breeder".

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PitNest
Member

Posts: 26
From:Austin ,Texas, USA
Registered: Nov 2003

posted 11-27-2003 06:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for PitNest     Edit/Delete Message
Goob, I guess I'm starting to see where your coming from. The cost of the dog really doesn't matter and quality is in the eye of the beholder. I've pretty much based my evaluation of my dog upon his breed history, perfect build and lack of any health problems to date or with any others that I know of from his litter. I'm just not understanding why just because one might not agree with my dog being bred, or just because I obviously haven't went to the lengths of testing that you've mentioned, that my dog is "not of the quality that SHOULD be being bred right now.
To me this is just a guessing game. Pretty much assuming that anyone that doesn't have all the tests you've mentioned, or competitions under their belt more than likely has a dog thats sub-quality. If this is the case then I know of quite a few people that have beutiful pits that are of "low" enough quality that they shouldn't be bred. I agree that many of these beutiful dogs really shouldn't be bred but I'm not seeing how that my lack of testing can lead to your assumptions. If anything I could see assumptions that I might not know as much about breeding as I might have originaly thought, but about the quality of dogs?

Trae

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neek
Member

Posts: 291
From:Australia
Registered: Oct 2003

posted 11-27-2003 07:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for neek     Edit/Delete Message
Why don't you get your dog evaluated and tested for genetic problems if you are keen to breed her. I am in no way "putting you down" for breeding your dog but its a good idea to do everything properly the first time so problems can't come back and "bite you on the bum" (for want of a better word) later on.

You might have the perfect dog for breeding and she might be very healthy but don't you want to be sure before you bring any more pups especially pitbulls into the world?? If you did a few tests for health, x-rays, temperament etc and THEN make your decision then I think most people would be 100% behind you all the way. Just a thought??

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daddyfs
Member

Posts: 86
From:clarksville tn
Registered: Nov 2003

posted 11-27-2003 09:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for daddyfs     Edit/Delete Message
My first pit ( Queen) was from a byb.. i didn even distinguish the them from registered breeders.. I know there has to be excepts to every rule. My queen had excellent temperment.. she was even dog friendly (unless she was eating). I had her checked up at the vet, and she was always fine.. Tho, i know i was probably jus part of a lucky few.. After visitin this site, i know i definately will get my next family member from a registered parents

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PitNest
Member

Posts: 26
From:Austin ,Texas, USA
Registered: Nov 2003

posted 11-27-2003 09:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for PitNest     Edit/Delete Message
Neek, your absolutely right. Although I'm not really planning on breeding her again. I just simply was curious about this subject in general and was just using my experience as an example. As far as Goob feels, as Im sure many others feel as well, I believe that the best of the best should be bred in order to better the breed. It's actually my male that is our finest bred dog in my opinion. I've been raised around pits my entire life. In fact my first dog when I was a child was a pit. Because of my interest in the breed I also know many breeders and owners in my area and in Dallas. My black male has been one of the best dogs I've ever had plus he's absolutely beutiful. Maybe I was wrong for breeding them but I can't say I regret it!

Trae

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goob
Member

Posts: 552
From:
Registered: Mar 2003

posted 11-29-2003 09:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for goob     Edit/Delete Message
Most APBTs out there right now, registered or not, are dogs that "are not of the quality that SHOULD be being bred right now". Therefore, unless an owner goes the extra miles to prove otherwise, I assume that their dogs, while they may be fantastic pets, are NOT breeding quality dogs. Furthermore, most breeding quality dogs come from good breeders, and most "good" breeders will not allow pups from their litters to be bred until they've been proven in some venue and health tested, which your dogs have not been. When you look at it from one person's point of view, no, one "pet" litter doesn't hurt a thing, but when you think about the thousands (maybe tens of thousands) of people out there breeding "pet" litters, it makes a bit more sense that "pet" breedings hurt the breed in a BIG way.

quote:
perfect build

NO dog has "perfect" build, all have faults of some sort (no matter how minor). It's up to breeders to honestly evaluate their dogs, determine their faults, and find breedings that will fix them. A person who cannot truthfully evaluate their dogs (either due to lack of knowledge or to kennel blindness) should not be breeding, as they are not going to be able to improve upon the breed if they don't know what they already have.

quote:
lack of any health problems to date

Many inheritable health problems don't show up until the dog is at least two years old, sometimes older. In addition, with the APBT generally being a stoic and hardy breed, it can be difficult to tell if they have, say hip dysplasia, or heart disease. That's why health clearances are so important.

quote:
If this is the case then I know of quite a few people that have beutiful pits that are of "low" enough quality that they shouldn't be bred.

Probably so. A dog's being "beautiful" doesn't necessarily make it a good example of the breed. I think my own dog is beautiful, and not too badly put together, but I can honestly look at her and say that she's not breeding quality (not even considering temperament, working ability, etc).

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