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| Author | Topic: new tank troubles |
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mike57 Member  Posts: 24 |
posted 12-12-2003 02:13 AM
 
hi i'm new to tropical fish got a new tank about a week ago. the salesman told me to use biospia and i could put fish in the next day and tank wouldn't have to cycle. it is a 55 gal tank he didn't have the right dossage for 55 so i had to buy dossage for 90 he said to use it all that you couldn't over dose with it. i added fish(50). after getting everything going i got to looking on net and reading about the cycling of new tanks(should have done this first)so far have not had any problems but am worried that i will. i tested the water and the readings look good to me ammonia .5 nitrite 0 nitrate 20 gh 75 kh 80 ph 7.2 just wondered what all of you thought and if any of you used biospia thanks in advance for any help and advice hope to be friends mike57 IP: Logged |
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katanas_edge Member Posts: 266 |
posted 12-12-2003 07:33 AM
Did you put 50 fish in your 55 gallon? What kind of fish are they? How long have they been in there now? If you've got nitrates already present, you may be OK. I'm never used cycle products myself, but theoretically they can work. IP: Logged |
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Samsintentions Member Posts: 944 |
posted 12-12-2003 09:05 AM
we have well water so we don't have that problem, though if you have 50 fish in a 55 gal tank, thats a little over crowding no matter what size fish they are....remember its reccomended 1 gal of water for each small fish, and 2-3 for larger breeds. IP: Logged |
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katanas_edge Member Posts: 266 |
posted 12-12-2003 09:36 AM
Hi Sam, I'm not sure what you mean by not needing to cycle because you use well water. A cycle refers to the initial process of bacteria establishing itself in a tank in order to break down ammonia into first nitrites and then nitrates. Unless your well is oxygenated and contains ammonia, this process is unlikely established in the water. I have also cycled with goldfish present, but they are a hardy fish. More delicate fish are unlikeley to be so lucky. Also, the rule of thumb is 1 gallon PER INCH of fish (capitals are for emphasis, not to offend). 3 gallons isn't nearly enough for most large fish (Oscars require about 80 gallons each, irridescent sharks better than 125). IP: Logged |
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mike57 Member Posts: 24 |
posted 12-12-2003 02:24 PM
thank you for the replies. i picked up a product today called stress zyme it says it has the live bacteria to help with ammonia i got it in case the ammonia level gets to high how high should i let it get before i add the stress zyme. when i tested the water today the numbers were the same on everything. the fish i have are: 14 danios 8 neons 5 highfin black tetras 4 platys 5 swordtails 5 gourami 5 tiger barbs 3 cory cats i put the first ones in the day after i put the biosphira in and added the rest over a week.had 2 neons die the day i put them in(i think they were injured when caught or in transport) the first ones have been in the tank for six days. i also have plants in aquarium don't know thier names will they help with ammonia, nitrites or nitrates? i'm sorry about the long post just trying to give all the info i can. thanks again for help and advice your friend mike IP: Logged |
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katanas_edge Member Posts: 266 |
posted 12-12-2003 02:57 PM
Unfortunately, like a lot of easy questions the answers are a little more complicated. For info on ammonia toxicity I found this reference. Actual toxicity is dependent on temp and PH (warmer and higher - more toxic. Addition of chemical ammonia removers is not likely a good idea. It will remove the very food that the bacteria are feeding on and interrupt the process. The tank will balance itself, if not overcrowded (ahh, the beauty and wisdom of nature  ) By your description, you shouldn't have problems immediately (I assume that they're dwarf gouramis). I have ten tetras in a 10 gallon and have no problems. If you find high ammonia or excessive algae growth as they grow, you can always split them. Watch the barbs as they like to nip fins if there's fewer than 6. http://www.thekrib.com/Chemistry/ammonia-toxicity.html IP: Logged |
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mike57 Member Posts: 24 |
posted 12-12-2003 03:48 PM
thank you for your quick reply and i went to the site about the ammonia and see what you mean by no easy answers. the stress zyne i bought says it contains live bacteria not chemicals that are suppose to help the filter it is made by aquarium pharmaceuticals, inc. i'm not planning a water change unless test readings go up and fish look stressed but just want to be ready and wondered if the bacteria in the stress zyme would help. they are dwarf gouramis all the fish are small. we bought small ones hopeing they are young and will be around awhile. we realy do want to do it right and wish i had cycled the tank with a few fish and no biosphira(not sure that's right spelling). thanks again for your help and advice your friend mike IP: Logged |
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katanas_edge Member Posts: 266 |
posted 12-15-2003 08:07 AM
Hi Mike, Ahh, back from the weekend. Just wondering how things went over the weekend and what your tank readings are like. Hope everything's OK. IP: Logged |
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LadyTierraOfTheValley New Member  Posts: 2 |
posted 12-15-2003 09:36 AM
Might I suggest using bio spira rather than stress zyme. This is the ultimate product for fishless cycling a tank. IP: Logged |
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mike57 Member Posts: 24 |
posted 12-16-2003 12:58 AM
i lost three neons this weekend. i also did a 1/4 water change. the ammonia got up to nearly three water change seemed to help. will changing 1/4 of the water everyday help or hurt? i know it will slow down the cycle but i hate seeing the fish die becaused i messed up. could the bio spira i used when i setup tank have died. i put it in one day and the next day added about 10 fish then added a few more every day . just wondered if maybe wasn't enough ammonia to keep it alive. i'll put some more in if you think it will help guess it couldn't hurt. the test readings are : ammonia 1.5 nitrite .5 nitrate 20 gh 75 kh 80 ph 7.2 thanks again for help IP: Logged |
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katanas_edge Member Posts: 266 |
posted 12-16-2003 08:04 AM
My message is getting quite long and off the point, so I'll summarise your answer first. The biospira shouldn't wreak havoc if you use a SMALL amount (see below). Monitor often (I know those kits are expensive, but compared to a cracked tank or purchasing a 125 gallon because your I. Shark has outgrown it's 10, it's a pretty cheap lesson) and only change if ammonia gets dangerously high. You could lower the PH (slowly to avoid PH shock - no more than .3/day - no lower than 6.5) to lower toxicity of ammonia. Nitrites are present, which means that ammonia reducing bacteria (nitrosomonas) are becoming established. Nitrates are at the same level, which means that nitrite reducing bacteria (nitrobacter) have not. Don't worry, they're everywhere and will establish themselves eventually. If you need moral support see concerned's thread from a little while back. Remember, when you're a grizzled aquarium veteran, this'll be a great story. The rest is for any sadist who wants to wade through my musings and offer their opinion. Agree/Disagree? I'm still pretty much a newbie myself and am very hard to offend with well thought out debate. Theoretically, at this point a product that contains nitrosomonas and nitrobacter (not specific names - just the families of bacteria responsible for nitrification) might help. Ammonia and nitrites are both present and ammonia creation by your fish is basically fixed. I'm not convinced that the guy at the store was correct in his statement about overdosing the tank. It certainly won't be toxic to the fish, but to much would basically be like introducing an artificial bacterial bloom of nitrosomona and nitrobacter at the same time. If the nitrites are consumed at a significantly higher rate than ammonia is converted, you could end up with a cycle hang. If the biospira is worth it's money, I would get a small bottle, or only use part of a large. In the presence of excess ammonia and nitrogen, they will readily reproduce and achieve their own balance (the blooms will be staggered somewhat nitrosomonas first, then nitrobacter). This is more or less what occurs over a regular 6 week cycle, but you might be able to accelerate it. That being said, I'm still not sold on fishless cycling. There's been too many people here looking for help because it isn't working. Don't feel bad though, I wouldn't have known anything about the nitrogen cycle when I started my aquariums either if I hadn't learned the basics in University and then the Aquarium applications on the internet. The theory of "fishless cycling" in my opinion should be managed more like assisted cycling - using water, substrate etc. from already cycled tanks to start new ones. The concept is the same, and the process of assisted cyclng seems to have a lot less problems. [This message has been edited by katanas_edge (edited 12-16-2003).] IP: Logged |
kc5gvn Moderator Posts: 806 |
posted 12-16-2003 09:10 PM
Hello all, Theoretically speaking to add nitrosomonas and nitrobacter at this point would be a waste of money. Your speaking of adding nitrosomonas to convert a relatively low level of ammonia (with relation to nitrite and nitrate levels). Basically an amount to convert an additional 1ppm of ammonia. Any excess nitrosomonas would not survive from lack of food. This will increase the nitrate level and most likely cause rapid algae growth (quite possibly red algae from that high a nitrate count). In theory you could get the situation where you have high ammonia production from fish waste and high nitrate production with virtually no increase in nitrites due to it being consumed as soon as it is produced, and never allowing it to spike and decline. This is an unbalanced tank. This is not from University studies, just years of operating and maintenance, but I believe University studies would bear this out. I've operated tanks before "fishless cycling" started and have never been a proponnent of "fishless cycling", but I have used the "assisted cycling" katanas_edge mentioned for years and have found it to be extremely successful with the least amount of complications. IP: Logged |
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mike57 Member Posts: 24 |
posted 12-17-2003 02:15 AM
thank you for your replys i'll hold off putting anymore bio spiria in tank. i've heard good things about bio spiria but don't think i'll use it to start up another tank. i lost a tiger bard and a swordtail last night. the ammonia went up to 6 i changed 1/2 the water and got it back down below 3. the other readings are: nitrite 3 nitrate 40 gh 75 kh 80 ph 6.8 i didn't do anything to change the ph it may have been the water changes will have to test tap water when i do next water change. your right this will make good story when i get past the crisses part and fish quit dieing. just wish i'd found this site before i bought tank. you people are great giving all the help you do thanks again for help IP: Logged |
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mike57 Member Posts: 24 |
posted 12-17-2003 02:17 AM
sorry i meant nitrite is 30 in other post mike IP: Logged |
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mike57 Member Posts: 24 |
posted 12-18-2003 02:05 AM
just did test again ammonia is up between 3 and 6 nitrite 3 nitrate 40 gh 75 kh 80 7.2 this was after a water change the fish seem fine(no dead ones today) they are swimming around and eating(i'm only feeding once aday now) was told not to feed to much till the cycle was complete that that would cause the ammonia to go up too. i feed enough that they have eaten every thing in just a few minutes try to make sure there is none left on bottom. we are using tetramin large tropical flakes. thanks for help and advice IP: Logged |
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mike57 Member Posts: 24 |
posted 12-19-2003 10:51 PM
just finished testing water ammonia 0 nitrites 1.5 nitrates 40 gh 75 kh 80 ph 6.8 i hope this means that the cycle is about over. IP: Logged |
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kc5gvn Moderator Posts: 806 |
posted 12-20-2003 07:48 AM
Hi mike57, It looks like your good to go. I would suggest only adding one or two fish per week for the first couple of weeks to let your bacterial filter get established. The first couple of weeks after the initial cycle the bacterial filtration is still a little unstable and adding several fish at one time can put a lot of ammonia into the tank and force a second cycle. After a couple of weeks you can add a couple of fish every three to four days, keeping in mind general guidelines of 1" of fish per 1 gallon on small tropicals and 1" of fish for 3 gallons on larger tropicals. IP: Logged |
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mike57 Member Posts: 24 |
posted 12-21-2003 02:09 AM
i don't think i'll add anymore fish i may have to many in it now but i realy do thank all of you for your help and advice all of you are great thanks again for help your friend IP: Logged |
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spaz_9871 Member Posts: 74 |
posted 12-21-2003 05:27 PM
i think your tank is done now you should of left your tank for a few day first just to let the bactera to cola-nize ------------------ IP: Logged |
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mike57 Member Posts: 24 |
posted 12-23-2003 12:44 AM
i know that now spaz but didn't when i set up tank. i just followed the lfs advice. i'll use bio spiria to help speed up cycling but will never try to ship cycling with it again. your friend mike IP: Logged |
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aaron285 New Member Posts: 3 |
posted 12-26-2003 10:01 PM
what are some good fish to start a new tank cycle. I have heard that danios and goldfish are guppies good too? or I may just be acting nieve, i dont know if danios, goldfish, and\or guppies are the same thing or not. and what should the amonia level and all be at for putting other fish in (mainly oscars) thank you! IP: Logged |
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aaron285 New Member Posts: 3 |
posted 12-26-2003 10:10 PM
when letting my tank go through the cycle, should i turn the filter on or leave it off? thank you for your help! IP: Logged |
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mike57 Member Posts: 24 |
posted 12-27-2003 03:28 AM
I'm a newbie to this to but i would use danios or mollies that is what was recommened to me, some of you members that know more than me correct me if i'm wrong. there is a fishless cycle but someone else will have to explain it if you use bio spiria be sure you have ammonia before adding it. then put 1/2 in and a few days later put the rest in. yes you have to run your filter during the cycling process or the bacteia will not be able to grow in it, and the bacteria is what breaks down the ammonia and the nitrites. you don't have to add anything to the water the bacteria is everywhere and it just takes it alittle while to grow in your tank. the cycle takes from 4 to 6 weeks you'll get an ammonia spike then a few days later you'll get a nitrite spike. the ammonia should be 0 and the nitrites should be 0 before you add more fish. be sure that you have test kit for ammonia,nitrite, and nitrate. it's very important to test water everyday, because if readings get to high you'll need to do a water change and don't be afraid to ask questions here the people are great and will give you lots of help danios and guppies are tropical fish and need warmer water than goldfish which are a cold water fish. from what i've been told you shouldn't put goldfish and tropicals togather IP: Logged |
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