Member

Posts: 277
From: Indy
Registered: Jul 2003

posted 09-12-2003 06:51 AM         

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I ran across this recently and I'm not sure
if I believe it or not. Do you buy this "theory" or not? Everyones feedback would be interesting.

http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/month.200309/msg00269.html

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James (The Grateful One)

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From:canada
Registered: May 2003

posted 09-12-2003 08:33 AM         

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WOW..............
you know that makes sense!!???!!
now im confused Ph has always been a big concern, but now im not sure.

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posted 09-12-2003 11:48 PM         

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I read that article and found it sad that after a half-century he is still at the same place he started from. Fish do go into PH shock from rapid PH changes. Externally humans have the ability to tolerate a larger PH range than fish and are more adaptable to PH change. It is a waste of time to compare a human in a swimming pool for 1 hour with acid PH to a fish in an aquarium with acid PH 24/7! Try sticking your hand in a jar of pickle juice for an hour and tell me acid PH has no effect.He also completely disregards the internal effects of PH. The most accurate thing I found in the article was in the heading where he referred to the article as diviantthread.

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Posts: 277
From: Indy
Registered: Jul 2003

posted 09-13-2003 05:26 AM         

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I'm glad to see that someone else is skeptical. I was from the start, being a witness of what I believed to be ph shock. This is why I refered to this as a "theory" in "". So kc it sounds like you've heard this one before. I'm just glad everything I thought I knew is right. This guy is leading a lot of people down the wrong path at another message board that I go to.

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James (The Grateful One)

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From: Indy
Registered: Jul 2003

posted 09-13-2003 06:01 AM         

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O.k. I posted a reply but don't see it so forgive me if I doublepost.
o.k. doublepost, sorry.

James (The Grateful One)

[This message has been edited by gr8fuljames (edited 09-13-2003).]

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posted 09-13-2003 11:53 PM         

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I hadn't heard it before. After your post I followed the link and read it. I may have been a bit rough on him, but the way he posted it was as a statemnt of fact not theory. If it is theory, he should use scientific method to test it before posting it. It is too easy for someone especially new to the hobby to be misled by that type of information. The best advice on these type posts is to follow what is the normal recommended procedure. When I was young and dateing I used to joke "eight million women can't be wrong", it kind of applies here, "eight million aquarists can't be wrong". The other day I ran across what appeared to be a good board with some really good information that followed scientific method. I'll try to locate that link and post it for you.

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From:
Registered: Jul 2003

posted 09-14-2003 04:47 PM         

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Hmm...I'm not a scientist and have keep fish as a hobby but here's what I don't understand...fish don't just swim in water they breathe water...and they can't live outside of water for more than...I don't want to say how long because I try to keep fish in water...humans live on land and breath air...we don't stay under water for very long without the use of scuba gear or submersive vehicles...I'm not the greatest at math and I'm trying to put 2 and 2 together....keep getting four and this guy sounds like he's getting 3...my point being I agree with KC...the argument comparing fish and humans...does the phrase "apples and oranges" come to mind for anyone else?

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From:Canada
Registered: Sep 2003

posted 09-22-2003 08:49 AM         

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His argument raises some interesting points but I think it comes to the wrong conclusion. Even by his argument management of PH can reduce harmful secondary effects, and therefore be useful. As an environmentalist and waste water treatment operator I can attest to the fact that PH has effects on bacterial concentrations and selection and on fish behaviour such as reproduction and habitat selection. To claim PH has no effect is silly when there is so much evidence in our own lakes and rivers. However, we should take the good with the bad and look at minimizing the secondary effects in case of a change in PH. Also, remember that a "PH change of 3" is relative. The scale is logarithmic. This means from 7-5 the relative concentration of ions increases by a factor of 100 (from 1 to 100). This is a difference of 99. However, from 5-3 we have the same factor, but concentration goes from 100 to 10000, a difference of 9,900. That is why it takes less chemical to adjust PH's around 7. Extreme PH's are harmful to almost all organisms that are not specifically adapted to them. A good reference page with descriptions of effects is www.fishdoc.co.uk/water/PH. I realise this is very long, but hope it provides clarification.

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Posts: 2
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posted 09-22-2003 09:15 AM         

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i dont know if i agree that it doesnt matter at all (PH) but i definently agree with the statement that hobbiest dwell on it wayy to much i personally only test once a month or so and my father, who is definently the most knowledgeable person i know where fish are concerened laughs at me couse i check that often

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From:Farmington Hills, MI, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted 09-24-2003 01:09 PM         

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I guess what irks me about his post is where he refers to 'blackwater' and pete moss as snake oils. I have kept discus and they FLOURISHED in blackwater. I also maintained a 6.0 pH in their tank, and kept the water soft. I'd love to see this guy keep discus in a tank that has a 9.0 pH level.

Also, I live in a area that is on the borderline of having city water. Our water is chemically treated and arrives out of the tap at 7.0 pH. Another city, right next door is on a well water system, and their tap water comes out at 8.5 pH. When people come into the petstore that I work at, I have to remind them to drip acclimate their fish if they live in that city because too many people have had their fish die as soon as they put them in their tanks at home. Now, tell me pH doesn't matter.

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From:Moscow, ID, USA
Registered: Sep 2003

posted 09-24-2003 08:58 PM         

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i don't profess any great degree of knowledge on the subject but this guy seems to be dead wrong. pH is a very important factor and indicator of water quality! I have just spent 3 weeks in both a limonolgy and aquaculture class and I am sorely tempted to take this article in to my professors and let them read it. I'm sure that they would cry.

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