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Author Topic:   Litter Mates -- Jealousy -- Biting Hard
the_rooster
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Posts: 4
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Registered: Mar 2004

posted 03-12-2004 04:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for the_rooster     Edit/Delete Message
Hi, my wife and I through the advice of a different breeder than we purchased from opted to get 2 beagle puppies at 8 weeks old from the same litter. They are male and female of excellent champion lineage with beautiful markings and are now 9 1/2 weeks old.

They have playing together wonderfully and crate training is going smooth as silk. However this past wednesday and up to present the female (smaller of the 2) attacked the male to the point that honestly think she would've killed him had I not intervened. She bit on to the side of his neck so hard that I cut my thumb prying her mouth away. She has continually attempted to re-attack him and we have now had to separate them. We are considering selling one of the 2 as we suspect the female has a jealousy issue. As soon as she attacks (happened 3 times so far) I immediately intervene and pin the female on her back until she stops growling and flailing all the while saying "NO" in a firm low tone.

Any advice you have is greatly appreciated.

Sincerely,
Dan & Steph

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honeybear
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Posts: 926
From:
Registered: May 2003

posted 03-12-2004 04:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for honeybear     Edit/Delete Message
hi and welcome, I dont have any experience with this, but did find the below information informative, I had it for my bro who was getting 2 pups and it does say they can become fierce rivals, please check it out
http://www.mastamariner.com/advice_sheets_2_puppies.html


and here are a few more. http://www.leerburg.com/2dogs.htm
http://home.att.net/~pvee/dbltrbl.html

hopefully someone else here can help that breed puppies and deal with this.

good luck
honeybear

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charmedagain
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Posts: 790
From:uk
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 03-12-2004 05:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for charmedagain     Edit/Delete Message
HI i have never had this problem with my litters but it does sound like a jealousy issue.
Is the male getting more attention than the female?
Do you play with them both at the same time?
Take them into the yard or garden the same time?

Also i would like to add never pin a dog on there back as this can cause serious agression problems and can also make her hand shy so please dont use this method.
Simply intervene and place her in another room or her crate.

mike

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raindigger
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Posts: 25
From:Roy, Washington
Registered: Jan 2004

posted 03-12-2004 06:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for raindigger     Edit/Delete Message
I have a different opinion on jealousy and pinning. To me, the aggressive pup is establishing dominance and pack order over the other pup which is so common in canines.
When thinking like a dog one needs to keep in mind how they act in a pack. Pinning is also an act of dominance and pinning an aggressive young dog and staring it down helps it to understand its place in the pack. I've seen it calm down and respect the pinner with no unwanted behaviors resulting.

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the_rooster
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posted 03-13-2004 06:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for the_rooster     Edit/Delete Message
Hello All,
Thank you for your feedback. In answer to your questions Mike, we have always taken them out together, let them play together, and if anything the female has gotten more attention because she's asked for it.

Example of this is in our living room (only room they are allowed out of the crate in) she will want to be on your lap most of the time while the male would play with a chew toy. He is very independent and never whines or causes a ruckus when we leave the room for a second to get a soda or something. The female is a little more high strung and always runs over to the gate watching us and whining a bit.

Up until this past Wednesday they played together great tugging on toys, play wrestling, cuddling together in the same crate. However on Wednesday I knew the female "snapped". When she bit him, the male couldn't even make a sound. He was gargling/gasping for air and couldn't make a sound when she clamped on to him. I cut my thumb on her teeth prying her 9 1/2 week old snout away. I was amazed at the power of her bite for only being 9 1/2 weeks.
Her biting is very calculated. She will appear to be playing and then all of the sudden she will calmly sniff his neck and almost pick the place to bite. Its happened three times so I've been able to see it coming now but when she does bite its very hard and appears to paralyze the male as he cannot get away and cannot bark.

As for the pinning down... My vet and our best friend who trains Weimaraners both were of the opinion that it does establish dominance over her aggressive behavior and is motivational. I would never punish a pup by putting them in their crate. The crate is supposed to be their safe place with only positive association. Placing her in another room would only add to the jealousy. Pinning her on her back and immobilizing her feet (not hurtfully, just firm enough to keep her controlled) is fast and in time with the undesired behavior and lets her know that she does not have dominance over me. However, I'm not sure she's made the full connection as even this morning she growled at her brother when taken outside to "get busy". The pinning has not affected her behavior towards me. She is always excited to interact with my wife and I. I even held my hand up as if I were going to hit (which I never do!) to test the theory that she may be hand shy. Her reaction was to stand on her hind quarters to sniff and lick my hand.

It may take her a while to make the association that biting her brother will result in a stern correction. Right now I know we can't trust her alone with him and its very frustrating but I'll keep you posted on our progress if we decide not to permanently separate them.

thank you all for your feedback

Dan & Steph

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susan_cude@hotmail.com
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Posts: 813
From:Santa Maria, Ca.
Registered: Nov 2003

posted 03-13-2004 07:28 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for susan_cude@hotmail.com     Edit/Delete Message
Oh my Gosh! I WANT TO HUG THEM BOTH!!!!They are too cute!! I had puppies a while back but never had to deal with this issue. I'm sure you will get more help here as well.

Good luck! and I hope she learns to stop beating up her brother so they can stay together.

Susan

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susan_cude@hotmail.com
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Posts: 813
From:Santa Maria, Ca.
Registered: Nov 2003

posted 03-13-2004 07:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for susan_cude@hotmail.com     Edit/Delete Message
I just thought of something, I know it's too soon now but! are you going to have them altered? I'm sure that would help also...just a thought....

Susan

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tuttifrutti
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Posts: 478
From:Dallas, Texas
Registered: Jul 2003

posted 03-13-2004 10:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for tuttifrutti     Edit/Delete Message
Wow! My dog and his sister get together to play sometimes, but never like that! They have only drawn blood once, and it was on accident! Snickers did something to Ranger, and when he yelped, she began licking him, and it looked like she was saying, "I am so sorry!". Your two pups are the cutest things! I hope you get it all worked out!

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charmedagain
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Posts: 790
From:uk
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 03-13-2004 03:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for charmedagain     Edit/Delete Message
Hi,Well as a breeder i would not ever pin any of my dogs or pups for any reason.

The problem is the fact when she is demanding attention you are giving in and allowing her to get what she wants when she wants it so she is not liking when the other pup is getting attention or she thinks he is going to get something she is not.

Allowing her to sit on your lap all the time is fine aslong as you have him on your lap too.

If she turns on him simply intervene a stern NO and place her in another room for 5minutes then allow her back in with you and the rest of the family if she does it again then do the same again but add 5minutes then try again she will soon learn that she is not the boss you are.

When she is demanding attention do not give her it.

When they are playing as soon as you see her mood change her attentions to something else like a chew toy or tug rope.

Mike

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the_rooster
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Posts: 4
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Registered: Mar 2004

posted 03-15-2004 03:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for the_rooster     Edit/Delete Message
Greetings all, after a very tough saturday (more fighting and blood drawn) we made the decision to sell "Jenny" the female to a friend of ours who is a physician and has a wife who is home all day. We are happy to have placed her in a loving home and will still get to see her progress onver the years. Maybe in a few months they will get to meet each other again and we'll see how they do

Thank you all for your feedback. It was greatly appreciated!

Dan & Steph

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honeybear
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Posts: 926
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Registered: May 2003

posted 03-15-2004 03:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for honeybear     Edit/Delete Message
Even though it was a hard decision, it sounds like it was the right one, and like you said your friend has the dog so the litter mates can visit. Good luck on your new pup! and thanks for keeping us posted on the outcome.

Honeybear

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Samsintentions
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Posts: 944
From:Columbus, Tx ,USA
Registered: Dec 2003

posted 03-17-2004 05:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Samsintentions     Edit/Delete Message
Litter mates can often turn agression on one another. I will not sell two puppies out of the same litter to one person.
Then again, my dogs are working, and littermates do not make good teams.

I find this to be disterbing that she acted in this manner. Perhaps she was at the bottom of the pecking order in the litter,and when you brought her home she decided she was top dog. Still this behavior is definately not good. Dog agression as well as people agression is not a helathy thing.

My little sister brought home a small beagle at 7 wks, and he was horrible, He attacked the cat, the larger dogs, even himself! SOme thing was seriously wrong withhim. They named him Shiner, since he gave her boyfriend a black eye. How I don't know, I thikhe jumped up and his snout hit him in the eye.

Beagles are a little agressive if you ask me. I've seen a couple that would like to rip anythings head off.
I think you made a great decision. I would have warned them about her agression and told them not to get another dog.

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susan_cude@hotmail.com
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Posts: 813
From:Santa Maria, Ca.
Registered: Nov 2003

posted 03-17-2004 07:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for susan_cude@hotmail.com     Edit/Delete Message
I'm sorry she had to be givin up but it sure sounds like you did what was best for both dogs. And the fact that a friend of yours has her, probably helped you in making such a tough choice. Now you can spoil the heck out of your boy with no intervention from his sister.

Good luck to you and your new addition to the family.

Susan

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kellie's cocker
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posted 03-17-2004 08:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kellie's cocker     Edit/Delete Message
they are so sweet!

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the_rooster
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Registered: Mar 2004

posted 03-18-2004 03:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for the_rooster     Edit/Delete Message
You will all be happy to know that "Minnie" (her new name) is doing great. We visited the other night and she has not shown an ounce of aggression since arriving at her new home.

The male puppy is doing wonderfully and almost seems to like his crate too much. A friend at work was nice enough to share his copy of adam katz dog training secrets and it works wonders. At 10 1/2 weeks He has already learned not to jump up on us, tug on our pants, or try to get on the couch unless we give him the command "cuddle time".

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honeybear
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Posts: 926
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Registered: May 2003

posted 03-18-2004 03:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for honeybear     Edit/Delete Message
great news! I have good stuff about Adam katz, not familiar with his training at all just head good things and good luck!, Wow, your dog like his crate too much, lucky you
honeybear

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