posted 02-27-2004 01:36 PM         

Most pups are coming from puppy mills now a days. You may be helping that particular pup by giving him a home, BUT you are not thinking about that pups mother, who aaready has another litter, and will have a litter every heat until she simply dies or is no longer usefull. You are also NOT helping yourself financially. Pet store pups usually have no guarantee, and you may end up spending thousands of dollars in vet bills.

The only thing you are helping by buying a pet store puppy is the puppy mill industry.

posted 02-27-2004 02:12 PM         

Lanena, - dont get me wrong- I dont condone pet stores that sells pups or puppy mills, but it is not a perfect world - many of these dogs spend months in cramped quarters that is horrible - I am only thinking of them getting into a happy healthy home and out of the many pet stores where living conditions which are horrible.

posted 02-27-2004 02:27 PM         

I asked about the breeder. These are from a high school girl who breeds her parents' dogs once every couple of years to make some extra money. So BYB, yes; puppy mill, no.

Both parents are on the small side. AKC but no health certifications. Store owner says she has never sold a Golden that has had HD develop - but that's unlikely. Puppies are guaranteed for a year for congenital health defects.

I have contacted rescue to see if they have a waiting list for puppies. Perhaps I can donate enough money to the rescue to allow them to buy the puppies and I can count it as a tax deduction? LOL.

But they are both gorgeous, clean, clean ears...arrrrgh!! I hate how they stand and sleep on a wire floor all day.

posted 02-27-2004 02:45 PM         

My brother just got 2 gold pups last week, boy he is going to have his hands full! He has had several goldens over the years, and got these 2 from a top breeder on the west coast. the lines are from mexico and and europe since from what I understand most of the breeding stock is now ruined. He went this route since his last golden died at only 7 from cancer and the older one he has now has heart problems and he also rescued 2 others who have/hd health problems.

Yea I wish I could write off Wylie Jake and Midas - with thel amount I spend on them! I am sure they will find good homes soon. interesting the people go that route to find them homes, probably just easier for them.

posted 02-27-2004 10:03 PM         

about a month or 2 ago a current affairs show had and segment on ACA pups and about how their designer dogs [spoodles etc]who supposedly came from 'proper breeders' actually came from puppy mills. god knows whats in store* for kuma when she gets older.

*just realised i typed stall, im not with it today!

posted 02-27-2004 10:11 PM         

Anyways...since pet stores will continue to exist for a long long long time to come, there is no harm in springing a pup from one of them. Scream and yell at me all you want....but face it...they arent going anywhere any time soon. I dont see anything changing in the puppy "market" so it will be a very very long time until the way we buy puppies changes as well.

posted 02-28-2004 06:07 AM         

I am going to think on this. If the puppies are bought in the meantime, then my decision is made for me!

Oh, and they aren't exactly cheap. They want $400 (each) for them, which is actually less than a lot of their other puppies.

The breeder my sister got her Golden from (excellent breeder) charged her $600 and she now charges $800 for pet-quality pups. I have no idea what she charges for show quality.

But she wouldn't even consider selling to me unless I brought the whole family with me to meet her, and she lives near my sister which is about 12 hours from us. She said even if we made the trip, she could still refuse us for any reason. I liked her!

I think maybe I just need to foster for a while, to get rid of this puppy fever.

Jamiya

posted 02-28-2004 07:47 AM         

I received an e-mail back from the Golden rescue I contacted. He is forwarding my e-mail on to the club president. I asked them if they have a waiting list for puppies and if I were to spring the pups from the pet store if they would help me to place them. I of course would agree to foster them in the meantime. I'll just have to wait and see what the president says.

Of course, the pups may very well find good homes with whomever purchases them from the store. In that regard, perhaps it is best to just let things run their course. But I also hate that pet stores let any Joe Schmoe buy their animals, no questions asked.

I once saw a young couple in that store. The woman was very pregnant. The husband/boyfriend/whatever was encouraging her to buy a pet. He wanted a hamster or a bunny. She was looking at the bunnies. I was cringing. This is the same store that told me, when I was considering a bunny, how easy rabbits are to take care of. I went home and did my own research, and that's simply not true. They also told me that rabbits are better off alone, whereas really they are social critters and happier with more than one.

So here's this very pregnant chick who is going to buy a bunny, stuff it into a too-small cage, and probably pet and love on the bunny until the baby is born. Then it becomes a giant, ignored paperweight and probably is eventually surrendered when it is no longer tiny and cute - hopefully to a rescue but more likely to a H.S. or set loose in the wild.

Anyway. I will wait on the rescue and see what they say.

posted 02-28-2004 08:35 AM         

I know how you feel jamiya it must be hard seeing these animals like this i dare say if it was upto us we would have every abandoned or abused animal living with us lol

posted 02-28-2004 10:19 AM         

(Incidentally, MistressKela, it's good to see that you are human like the rest of us, and that you make spelling mistakes also!)

posted 02-28-2004 02:14 PM         

I am restraining myself from going to see if they are still there. Maybe tomorrow. Hopefully someone will buy them soon.

I was thinking, though, about all the warnings about health issues in pet store puppies. I do understand the concern. But what health guarantee did I get adopting from the shelter?

If I were going to buy from a breeder, I would sure as heck make sure the parents had all the certifications possible and meet them, etc. But I doubt I will ever be buying from a breeder with so many dogs in need elsewhere.

posted 02-28-2004 05:01 PM         

Right i breed german shepherds and touch wood none of my dogs have had any temperment agression problems.

How can you say this is passed down this is just not true a puppy grows up the way it is brought up and trained by the owner there is no such thing as an agressive animal just an irresponsible and ignorant owner.

Does not mean just because you buy a purebred puppy that it will be any better than a petstore puppy its down to the owner of the puppy that determines how it will turn out so please dont give us the babble that petstore puppies are going to be agressive dominant and so on as this problem can happen even with purebreed dogs.
Just take 2 well mannered none agressive parents does not mean that when these puppies goto there new homes they will turn out the same.
Take 2 very agressive dominant parents does not mean that the puppies when goto there new home they will grow up like this.

I have one very moody female and one very moody male and they have had puppies and there pups are good sound quality dogs.
I also have another 2females and another male and they are the most docile soft dogs you can come across and there puppies have been fine.
Now one of my females is expecting her first litter and as yet i dont know how they will turn out as i had her mated with a stud dog and not one of my own he was a very pushy male so you can say he was dominant.

I can tell how the pups will turn out from the second they start walking around and i can tell the new owners of how they will react in the new home.

So please dont tell us that because we know nothing of the puppies background that there is likely to be behavioural issues as this is just not the case.

mike.
boro_lad1976@hotmail.com
mickyuk26@aol.com

posted 02-28-2004 11:47 PM         

Those same Catahoula dogs that I spoke of earlier that are being sold in Canadian pet stores are frequently brought into rescue, many are euthanized because of their temperments. Bad temperments can be bred and passed on. The ones I have heard about on the rescue board are all coming from the same store and all being bred by the same person. I have heard the rescue people and breeders get really angry that this BYB keeps breeding them knowing he/she is putting dogs out there with horrible temperments.
If traits such as tracking, or being soft mouthed, protective or shy can be passed along what makes you think temperment can't?

posted 02-29-2004 03:13 AM         

I would still buy a petstore puppy just to rescue it from the place agressionand behavioural problems are not an issue to me and i believe if you work hard enough with a dog or any animal they will come to be calm and sweet natured dogs.

I can understand thatt some puppies coming from petstores are terrible natured but i have to admit if i was caged up and not have much contact with people i would turn abit snappy or agressive.

I do see your points though.
I just wish there was someway we could stop these puppy mills and BYB as its so not far most of the puppies are being put to sleep even at a very young age.

I will also be honest with everyone i have always said that if ever one of my dogs attacked someone that did not provoke the dogs i would have them destroyed immediatly i know that sounds evil and nasty but as i look at it once they have done it and have the taste for blood they will do it again.

One of my mums dogs attacked the postman and this is all because he told the dog to move and nudge him with his foot i wont take the risk of anyone or even a child being hurt by my dogs.

Lucky i dont have to worry about that as they are too daft to bite themselves lol.

My mum says i have them as soft as puppys but i dont care they are good guard dogs when i am not here.

But back to petstore pets the dog my youngest sister got was so sweet and quiet and shy that was when he was 9months old but 2 weeks after she had him neutered he turned very snappy and pushy this lasted for about 6weeks.
It was my 6year old nephew who calmed him down and taught him being nasty was wrong and the dog only listens to him which i think is really good.

So i am saying not all puppies from a petstore are going to have problems but the conditions some of the pups that go into the store there is no wonder they turn snappy i would.

posted 02-29-2004 06:40 AM         

Susan, I am not saying you or your sister (did I get that right - the one with the Chow?) did anything wrong. You probably did not. BUT just to say you always treated the puppy well and lovingly does not mean you would not have any aggression problems with it. In a dog that tends towards dominance and aggression, there are techniques you must use to ensure you will not have a problem later. Being lovey-dovey is not one of those things.

As in the other thread about the dobies, you have to nip these problems in the bud. You have to teach the dog to not be pushy, and let him/her know you are boss. I think some of the dominance problems in some dogs come from owners being too soft on them - not *caused* by the owners, but not prevented either. I don't mean you have to be mean, but firm. Does this make sense?

I feel fortunate that we have not had to deal with this issue. I'm not sure I have what it takes to train and deal with a dominant dog. I'm too much of a softie.

But no one answered my question! I understand having health concerns about pet store puppies. But how is this any different than a shelter puppy? A shelter pup's parents are still unknowns, and their early lives are unknowns as well. They could have been taken from the litter too soon; they could have spent time fending for themselves on the street; they could have been abused by people. Some (the older dogs) have already been returned for behavior or temperament issues.

So why is a pet store dog any more of a gamble than a shelter dog?

posted 02-29-2004 09:47 AM         

You may be right about the chow my daughter had, but no offence! I dought it, this was a mean dog...period...if we had to do over again, I'm sure we would try different things that have been learned since then. That's why it's so important to stay open minded (speaking for myself here) so I can continue to learn....

posted 02-29-2004 05:16 PM         

quote:

---

if you buy a pet from a pet store you're promoting the puppy mills

---

If anyone could find a website to a breeder that is reputable AND isn't making a profit (of ANY kind and I really do mean ANY kind) in las vegas...I would be very appreciative. Any breed..but I really would like to know what one is and that they do exist. At 800 bucks a pup they are making a profit. I dont care how large or small it is..they still are. Any breeder selling pups of the same litter at different prices is not doing so ethically.

posted 02-29-2004 07:00 PM         

I personally find nothing wrong with a breeder who makes a small profit - after all, they are working to produce good, healthy pups. But I don't think any GOOD breeders make a living off their puppies. For that, you need to be a puppy mill.

Also, responsible breeders usually only have one or two litters per year, and sometimes less than that. Do you really think even $800/pup for maybe 8 pups is going to support you and the cost of the dogs for two years until you have the next litter?!

Let me see if I can find it and cut and paste...

Ah, here it is. This was posted by Jas in another thread ( http://www.auspet.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000329.html ):

*****************

Well I can think of many breeders who have not "profited" one bit. Which do you want first the breeder I know who lost ALL but one puppy in her litter to parvo. Vet bills for the litter were in the high thousands if not $10,000. It tormented her to sell the one remaining pet puppy for $1000. So $-9000 dollars later plus the cost of vet checks & set of shots, registration, tattoos, microchips, food, supplies, phone calls, additional paperwork for the litter and TIME, that number is more like $ -12,000. Yes, was her own fault for not taking every possible precaution - parvo was said to be trekked in on a visitor's shoes, but what a sad and hard lessen.

Case 2 - a Breeder I know female had 6 pups, needs emergency c-section on the last 3. one pup doesn't make it. Cost of emergency approx $1000. Plus antibiotics. Litter costs including same as above total approx $3500.

I believe he sold show prospect pups for $1000, pets for $700. 3 show & 2 pets. One pup had a hernia which needed removing. On two pups breeder paid for the altering ($500 for those costs) one pup was found to have a congenital problem several months later. Breeder refunded purchase price
$4400-
1000-
3500-
500-
700
-----------
$-1300

Both of these cases didn't include the Stud dog fee, health testing of the breeding animals OFA Hips elbows, BAER, CERF, CARDIAC, Cost of shipping semen on one of these breedings plus the AI and costs involved with that. Also costs of show fees as neither breeder will not breed to a dog without its conformation Championship. I am guessing this cost them anywhere from $2000-4000. Doesn't take much, costs add up really fast. I would say this could happen and often does at one point to almost every breeder. Even if there are not health issues or problems expectant costs for one litter with all appropriate health testing of the parents are around $6500 and this does not include time or work missed.

*****************

So you see, like everything else - it adds up fast if you do it responsibly.

posted 03-01-2004 09:52 PM         

Food and supplies are minimal. Vet care for the average litter? Probably one prenatal visit and then the actual delivery if the breeder can't do it themselves. We should keep in mind that dogs have been doing this for years on their own without human help so its not exactly brain surgery either. The certifications I dont know much about. I can't imagine they would be horribly expensive. If they are just based on the parents certs then those would already be done and that would not matter. Registration should be minimal. Advertising the puppies (remembers all the times she heard that reputable breeders dont advertise and scoffs) maybe 12.50 per week for an ad in a major paper. Geocities web page: free.

To even further play devil's advocate here I want to bring up puppy mills. As horrible as these places may be...they do turn a profit. They also are checked out by the USDA and they do usually have one resident or local veterinarian doing things such as duclaws and cesarians if necessary. Anyways...my point here is that these guys do make money. They sell their puppies in the range of 200 to 400 dollars. 400 being the MOST expensive tiny yorkies and maltese. Outside of those prices the only price exceeding that would be an extremely small dog or a bull dog. Bulldogs cost 1000 from a kennel and the SECOND most expensive dog I've ever seen ran 440.

So take that 400 price...lets say a poodle. Tack on two more vet visits at 40 bucks each and thats being extra seeing how that cost would be divided among the puppies. 15 dollars for registration. 15 for advertising. 15 for food which it probably only ate two cups worth before it left home. Add $X for this hip etc certification bit.

We're at 515 + X the cost of certs. We are most definately nowhere NEAR 1500 dollars and we are already making a profit. Puppy mills make so much of a profit that there actually is a deal going on at most places. Buy XXX number of puppies in a particular shipment and we'll throw in 3 more puppies for free but you dont get to choose the breed. So every order comes 40 puppies for example plus 3 or 4 bonus pups (probably shihtzus ) and the pet store and puppy mill both turn profits.

posted 03-01-2004 10:35 PM         

All breeders are paid for their puppies in turn, if you will, generate income from the sale of animals. What is put back into those animals led to my statement that a GOOD breeder is not making money off their hobby. BYB and puppy mills do. They do not health test, temperament test, or in many instances even provide adequate vet care. YES those are the indiscriminant breeders who breed for the WRONG reasons. Simple fact is Reputable Breeders know better these days than to sell to pet stores. Any breeder that does is NOT a good breeder.

Many all-breed rescue org. will not buy puppies/dogs at all. Even if rescue or a buyer makes a purchase from a pet store they are still clearing the way for more puppies to be sold. Its a difficult stance - understandably on one side we want to help these poor neglected creatures living in cages and given min. attention but thinking we are doing a good thing to remove them from the situation doesn't mean it is. This pet store now knows how easy it is to sell cute irresistible pups and rely on that and will replace the bought ones with more. Places are known to falsify documents, lie about age, and where the dogs came from. I don't think it would be too difficult to say they get dogs from "such and such kennels" - its a front for a place they own or one that doesn't exist. Petstores selling pups will say anything a buyer wants to hear to make a sale. Do not trust them no matter how genuine they seem.

posted 03-02-2004 03:03 AM         

Once pups are born them and the mother are taken to the vets for there check ups to make sure all is well my vets will even do blood work on my females to make sure that they did not contract anything during the time of pregnancy.

All my puppies are fully vet checked blood work vaccinated wormed and so on before they leave my home.

The money i would have made of the dogs goes straight on vet bills, food bills and so on.

Mistresskelsa that puppies will of only eaten 2cups of the food before they went to there new homes.

Weaning puppies they eat 4-6 meals a day from 4-8 weeks by the time they are 8weeks they should be on 4 meals perday reducing this to 2-3meals perday by the time they are 12weeks old.

Only the puppy mills and BYB who are the people that make money from the pups as they are not concerend about the health of the females.

Why should a breeder charge the same price for a top quality show dog as the same price for just a pet that wont be used for showing.

But i would like to say again i dont make profit off my dogs.

I also ask people to remove there shoes and disenfect there hands before touching any of my pups.
this is not a bad thing.

posted 03-02-2004 06:39 AM         

Reputable breeders usually only have one or two females they are breeding, and each female has no more than one litter every year or two.

The breeders I know do not advertise. They have waiting lists longer than their arms. Why? Because they produce quality pups but with only one litter per year, that's not many pups sold.

So let's forget about the costs for a moment. 8 pups at $800/pup is $6400 for a litter. Gee. $6400/year really isn't a lot of income now is it? And of course, there ARE costs.

And why not sell show quality pups for more than pet quality? Isn't everything else you buy priced according to quality? Would you pay more for quality, handmade furniture or knockdown particle board furniture? Quality is quality.

Jamiya

posted 03-02-2004 09:53 AM         

Puppy mills DO crank out puppies faster. Just because they do this faster doesnt mean they dont incur any costs. They still have to feed their pups and have their vet check them out, etc. They are only in business because of the number of pups they deliver..obviously so because the price is so low. The only point that was trying to make was that that low low price that they sell their dogs for was enough to make a profit yet you will never find a pup of the same breed for anything NEAR the cost a pet store pays for a pup..at any breeder.

posted 03-02-2004 11:07 AM         

quote:

---

Jamiya, your extra work in finding the former thread and re-posting it is appreciated by many, I'm sure. Then again, there are always those who fight to the death to keep their opinions and don't want to learn.

---

Yes, isn't this the truth!!

Mistresskella wrote:

quote:

---

Parvo was a misfortunate accident that could have been avoided at all costs. When I looked at chihuahuas I had to leave my shoes at the door and wash AND disinfect my hands and THEN proceed to the room where the puppies were. Any breeder in their right mind knows that parvo is often tracked around on shoes especially the shoes of people who have been out and about looking at puppies for the day.

---

some breeders learn the hard way, it was unfortunate this happened but you are wrong - accidents happen despite extreme cautions. Parvo can be transmitted as easily as from on a contaminated dogs fur and even the vaccine has been known to cause parvo. How it happened to this breeder was just a guess.

With regards to breeding, until you've been in another's shoes and have been breeding for at least 5 years don't make comments you don't know anything about. Your blatant statements are not incorrect, they are way off and not very well thought through. Why shouldn't a breeder put money from litters back into their dogs for medical health tests and a quality breeding program??? Food and supplies minimal??? Do you have a clue how much 6-8 week old puppies eat? Times that by a litter of 10. One vet visit?? Where do you get your information?

quote:

---

The certifications I don't know much about. I can't imagine they would be horribly expensive. If they are just based on the parents certs then those would already be done and that would not matter. Registration should be minimal.

---

posted 03-02-2004 11:07 AM         

And as far as puppy mills having costs - sure they feed their dogs, but I can guarantee you they feed them a food that is CHEAP. Breeders spend a whole lot more on good food than puppy mills. The dogs in puppy mills also eat less, because they spend all day locked in a cage. And vet bills? Please. They crank out puppies until they can't crank no more, and then they are disposed of. What vet bills?