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Author Topic:   Fear aggression - What to do?
elizavixen
Member

Posts: 160
From:Columbia, SC, USA
Registered: Dec 2003

posted 02-09-2004 06:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for elizavixen     Edit/Delete Message
My 6yr old, Samantha, is a very timid dog. She used to not be this way when she was younger (up until 4 yrs approx) but for a variety of reasons (moving, etc.) she has now become somewhat fearful. It really only shows up at home or near home. Not towards me, but strangers. She barks up a storm when people come to the house. I'd like to say she'd never bite anyone (she never has) but I'm not so sure anymore. This problem has been exasberated with the new puppy. She thinks she has to protect him now too so when she used to sort of try to hide, now she gets up in people's faces and just growls and barks. Away from home, she is shy and only does a low growl if people get too close to her.

I'm not really sure what to do about it. I don't have that many people come over to my house but the ones who do won't go near her. Not that I can blame them but I don't know how to teach her that it is OK if I have to put her in a room.

My real problem is, she is teaching this behavior to the puppy. He looks at what she is doing and when she's barking up a storm, he does it too. He is not afraid or anything, he's just doing it cause she is. When it is just him, he goes up and makes friends with anyone or anything that walks through the door. I'm trying real hard to socialize him as best as I can but with Samantha setting such a bad example I'm not really sure what to do.

I have tried to socialize Samantha but she is just so shy and unpredictable it is hard. This problem is mostly just at the house. I try to tell people, don't worry, I'll hold her, but they ain't coming in unless she is put up so i have to lock her in the bedroom. I'm also a little nervous to encourage people to come up to her because she may just bite them. I don't know.

Like I said, she wasn't like this when she was younger. Just with her buddy being stolen and then me moving 5 times in the last 2 yrs, she is very unsure of herself. And now this puppy.

Any suggestions would be appreciated. I just don't really know how to socialize her at the house. Away from the house, she is really no trouble, but at the house, she is very protective. Not mean protective, but I don't know what to do protective.

I got concerned b/c yesterday the cable man was here and I put her and the puppy on the screen porch. She would never bust through the screen but she got the puppy so hyper that he was trying to. I cannot have that.

This is long enough so I'll shut up now.

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PinkPoodleSparkles
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Posts: 67
From:Albany, Ga, USA
Registered: Feb 2004

posted 02-09-2004 06:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for PinkPoodleSparkles     Edit/Delete Message
Samantha sounds like my step mom's dog. We finally got tired of it so we decided that when someone came in and he barked that was fine, for 5 minutes. If it continued for over 5 minutes then he had to go to timeout for 5 minutes. If he got quiet and didnt bark alot he could stay out, but if he growled he got told NO and hed stop, then if he growled 3 times and go told NO, hed have to go to the room for timeout, for 5 minutes. After a couple of weeks he finally started getting the hint. Granted he still didnt go and play with the visitors but he got quiet when they were there and he didnt growl hardly at all.
As for the puppy, you should make sure he sees you get on to Samantha and then let him see you put her in timeout. Let him play and be friendly. Let her back out 5 minutes later and if she starts barking again or growling tell her no a couple of times and if that doesnt work back to the room she goes. If the puppy barks with her tell him no, and if he keeps doing it put him in a SEPERATE room so he doesnt think hes getting to play with her in a room all by themselves.
I hope this helps! This is just a suggestion!
stephanie

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susan_cude@hotmail.com
Member

Posts: 813
From:Santa Maria, Ca.
Registered: Nov 2003

posted 02-09-2004 09:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for susan_cude@hotmail.com     Edit/Delete Message
That sounds like a good idea, except I wouldn't allow a whole five minutes. Thats an eternity when a dog is barking, at least it seems like it. Do be careful though, if she bites someone, you could get in trouble. Do you have signs posted that say: Beware of dog! if not I would get some. I'm sure you'll get more advise as well.

Susan

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susan_cude@hotmail.com
Member

Posts: 813
From:Santa Maria, Ca.
Registered: Nov 2003

posted 02-09-2004 10:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for susan_cude@hotmail.com     Edit/Delete Message
Hi again, I've heard Jamiya, Maisey and others speak about a dog behaviorlist (or whatever it's called) have you thought of going that route?

I'm reminded of my brother inlaws old dog, he wasn't realy old, just crazy! Not that Samantha is! you said she hasn't always beed that way, and his dog was! after about the age of three, that dog was very unpredictable. Mark (brother inlaw) always made excuses for his dog because he loved him so much! Not that I don't understand that, I do. But that dog was crazy! he always made me and everyone else nervous. He would growl for no apparent reason, then the day came when he bit Marks son. Mark blamed his son for the incident, not the dog! so nothing was done. Then he bit one of neices! again nothing was done. Until unfortunantly one day while my neice was feeding him and thier other dog (A Rotty) Jackson (the crazy dog) attacked her when she bent down to straighten thier bedding. Thank Goodness the Rotty jumped him! or the damage would have been alot worse than it was. She had over fifteen bite marks on her, all over her back, stomach, and neck. My sister had tried and tried to tell Mark that dog was dangerous, but he wouldn't listen. Jackson had to be put down, that was very sad! but I think if Mark would have done something about his behavior in the beginning, it would never have come to that.

I'm not saying Samantha is like that dog, but getting a handle on it before something realy bad happens, is a good idea! You're doing the right thing in asking what could be done.

Susan

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Maisey
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Posts: 1387
From:Portland, Oregon US
Registered: Sep 2003

posted 02-09-2004 11:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Maisey     Edit/Delete Message
Dooley used to bark when someone came to the door, he is very property protective. I got frustrated with it when I got Witt, because it's hard to hold two dogs back...then it dawned on me one day..WHY am I struggling with two dogs like this? I decided to change it.
I would allow Dooley an "alert" bark as soon as I say "OK, Thank you" he is done...if he barks after that I send him to his crate. I don't even have to shut the door he just goes in and waits for me to release him. I do not yell at him...just calmly give the command to crate up. We have been doing this for a while now, and he has basically got it down pat. No more raging at the door and me fighting to hold him back. If it is someone strange that will be coming in, I will ask them to wait a second and I take a hold of Witt because I don't trust him yet with starngers coming into the house, but Dooley understands when I say "It's OK" that I have it handled.

Putting a time on something I personally think is a people thing...dogs don't understand time like we do. If you tell your dog, "Dooley sit...sit...SIT!" he does get the message that he doesn't really have to sit until the third or more exaspoerated "SIT!". He soon has you figured out...mom doesn't really mean it the first time she says it. Say it once and mean it, be firm, but no need to yell. Be consistent, and clear.
I would recommend that you concentrate on exuding in your body language and voice a confidence and capability in protecting yourself and your dog, make it clear that it is YOUR job to do the protecting. Don't allow your dog to charge out in front of you...you be in front at the door. Remember in the pack..YOU are the leader and your dog should know this and feel confident in your ability to be that leader. When you say "OK Thank you" you are saying ..."I heard you, thank you for alerting me to the door, I'll handle it" You can use any command you want, but be consistent and clear.
If you feel it is unsafe for you to work with your dog while someone enters your house, consider a soft muzzle. This way you will be able to see how she actually reacts with no danger to that person. You can tell them at the door that she can't bite them and to please be patient as you work with her. Just some ideas, hope they help.

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goob
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Posts: 552
From:
Registered: Mar 2003

posted 02-09-2004 11:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for goob     Edit/Delete Message
Take all that follows as the opinion of someone with a couple dogs, no professional experience, and no money either it's what works for me and our dogs, and may or may not help you and yours.

First, make sure there's not an underlying medical issue.... since she hasn't always been like this, that's the first thing that comes to mind. Thyroid inbalances can cause temperament problems like fearfulness or aggession, and can easily be ruled out by a thyroid level test (if I remember right, it's also not too expensive, though I guess it varies by vets). Get the health aspect checked thouroughly before doing anything else.

I'll also toss out that maybe the reason she's doing this now with another dog there is NOT because she is "protecting" him, but because she feels more confident with him there as "backup" (safety in numbers, etc), and because of that is choosing to try and scare away these frightening people rather than hide. I've seen this is our dogs (and other dogs I've been in contact with) a number of times, a dog who will normally tuck tail and run from another dog that enters their yard or home may become king kong if there is another dog on "their side" of things. If I walk the three little dogs alone, they don't pay much attention to other dogs (one does, but she still behaves herself), but if I take all three (usually just on leashes until we get to the field and I can let them run, then back on to go home) and another dog comes up off-leash, they all strain at the leashes and carry on if the dog comes close to them. The fact that they're all together gives them the nerve to fight this percieved threat rather than back down as they normally would.

As far as dealing with her problem, definitely consult a trainer or behaviorist if possible, they will be able to help far more actually seeing the dog's reactions than any of us can. If that's not possible, or in the interim, if you're unsure of her around people coming in, either put her up, gate her out of the area they're in, or put her on a leash and keep her away from them when company is over. It's not worth someone elses health and her life to risk, especially if your instincts are telling you that she may bite.

We have a couple shy dogs, one is put up when company comes (people coming into your home is a high stress time, especially for a dog who is already nervous about strangers, it's much easier to put her up, then start "new" once everyone is settled in), then brought out on leash if the company is ok with that and understands the dog's issues (ie: they cannot dive on her or shower her with affections, this rules out most kids). If not, she's comfy in her room until they're gone, no big deal. The other is shy, and will bark from inside the safety of his crate, but either just stays in there or comes out and warms up to them and is fine. Another is nervous around strange men and will bark at first, but then settles in and is fine.

If it was me dealing with this issue, and going only off of what you've mentioned in your post, I would put her up when company comes (before you open the door), get everyone in and settled (standing people are much more intimidating than sitting), then bring her out on leash. Keep her over near you, but don't pay much attention to her, she's just there for the view. If she barks or carries on, take her back to the room or whatever you use, she'll realize that barking is counterproductive to her because it gets her removed from her people. Don't force her to go up and visit with them, actually, it's better if they completely ignore her, because their gestures at friendliness may be taken as threats by her. Be aware of her and her body language as you have her out, but not nervous or overly tense, as she'll pick up on that. If she starts getting overly nervous, put her up for a bit, then try again later, pushing her will only result in her regressing. You may notice her acting out more while sitting near you because she thinks she's guarding you from them, if so, you might try a tie-down (leash attached to a sturdy eyebolt or the like, not near you OR the guests) instead of holding the leash, so she cannot put herself between you and them and act out.

If you do this enough, she should start to realize that she can't harass your guests, but also that the guests aren't going to bother her, and she may start seeking to interact with them (properly) on her own. If not, at least she will be able to behave herself when guests are around. She may not make as much progress as you hope (you may always have to have her on-leash just to be safe, and still have to put her up in some situations), but anyhthing is better than nothing, and small successes do build up.

I can't even begin to explain the pleasure I felt when the first dog of ours I used as an example above got up from my feet, walked over, and bummed a cheese cracker from a visiting uncle she'd been avoiding like the plague only the day before (of course it didn't help that on a previous visit, he'd tried to push himself on her and "make friends", which only scared her more). She continued to solicite food and pets from him occasionally for the rest of their visit, and allowed him to come up and pet her a few times without moving away as well. It took years of work to get her to this point, so yes, it's hard work, but completely worth it for good moments like that one.

I'd also tell people to ignore her on your walks, don't allow people to push themselves on her or push her onto them, but don't let her act like a savage either. Try to keep her out of situations where she's uncomfortable until you've had a chance to work with her in similar situations and get her used to them. Some lines I've used for people who want to pet them are "he/she's afraid of strangers", "he/she's very shy, and not ready to be petted right now", and "he/she's in training", depending on how the person is acting (some people might want to pet them more if you tell them the dog is nervous or afraid, just to prove something, whereas the training excuse is both true and leaves less open for debate).

I would also seperate him (the pup) and her when she's wierding out, as you don't want him picking up on her bad habits and his presence may actually be contributing to her behavior.

Again, that's just my experiences with a couple dogs, take what you like and use common sense in dealing with her, if you think she can't handle something, don't put her in a situation where she's forced to handle it or break. There are several decent email lists and message board for dogs with shyness and/or fear issues, I can give you a couple links if you send an email pitpalz@yahoo.com

A side note about beware of dog signs.... in some places, if you have them and your dog DOES bite someone (doesn't matter why, they could be hijacking everything you own), the presence of those signs can be taken as evidence that you "knew" your dog was dangerous or aggressive. This has been used in courts and IS a liability issue, something people need to be aware of. Better messages are:
Be AWARE of dog.
Dog on premises, keep gates closed. (or omit the part about the gate)
There are other ways too, but it's 2am and I can't remember any more right now

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susan_cude@hotmail.com
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Posts: 813
From:Santa Maria, Ca.
Registered: Nov 2003

posted 02-10-2004 12:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for susan_cude@hotmail.com     Edit/Delete Message
thanks Goob! I didn't know that about the sign. Susan

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Maisey
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Posts: 1387
From:Portland, Oregon US
Registered: Sep 2003

posted 02-10-2004 01:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Maisey     Edit/Delete Message
Good post Goob! I have actually asked for opinions on the sign before and didn't get a response. I've been told I should put one up..but it seem to me like I would be asking for trouble.

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elizavixen
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Posts: 160
From:Columbia, SC, USA
Registered: Dec 2003

posted 02-10-2004 03:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for elizavixen     Edit/Delete Message
Thanks for the suggestions. I'm glad she's not the only one with this problem.

I have the beware of dog signs put up and just recently I put a lock on the dog fence. I haven't seen those other dog signs. but I certainly want something up b/c sometimes you can't see the dogs if they are sleeping on the porch. I don't want little kids wandering in.

When people come over I usually put her in my bedroom. I think that only makes her more upset b/c then she can't see anything. I can try to hold her but she is 100+lbs so it is difficult. Then the puppy won't leave people alone so I'm trying to hold him to.

I also am quite sure it is nothing medical. Around me and people she knows, she is 100% fine. I think why she changed was that she grew up with a bossy male dog and she was the submissive one who never had a care in the world b/c the male would take care of anything. After he was stolen, she was afraid to be outside by herself. then I kept moving so she could never really get comfortable.

I do have a muzzle for her (never used it, bought it just in case) so I think I may try bringing her out with it on and holding her on a leash.

[This message has been edited by elizavixen (edited 02-10-2004).]

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Jamiya
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Posts: 1392
From:
Registered: Sep 2003

posted 02-10-2004 06:28 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jamiya     Edit/Delete Message
Another thing I have heard about being done in cases such as these is trying to desensitize the dog to strangers and make her realize they are okay. To do this, you need to enlist the help of friends. They come to the house and toss her a treat as soon as they get in the door. They don't try to get close or anything that would threaten her. This way, she learns that people coming to the door is a good thing. You have to practice a lot. Eventually, when she is comfortable, you can start closing the space between her and the "stranger".

I know I read about a dog that was afraid of pizza delivery people. The book didn't give details, but it said she overcame this fear when she learned that a pizza man means a GOOD thing - she gets pizza!


Jamiya

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honeybear
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Posts: 926
From:
Registered: May 2003

posted 02-10-2004 08:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for honeybear     Edit/Delete Message
Eliza, I was just going to say what Jimiya said, try working with her on some of the tips Goob gave, and have friends help you with some of training excercises. I would check with a trainer, And you may want to do this with the puppy out of the way at first. I think Goob said it best, that once she learns after being taken into the room everytime she is acting up and gets rewarded by staying out, is good. And as Maisey said, you need to be the dominant one (boy I should practice what I preach!) I am just doing this with my Cat in a way. Midas all of the sudden decides he wants out at night (like !12:am and howls to no end. So the last 2 nights I put him in the garage for a few hours and then bring him back in an he is quiet as a peep.
good luck honeybear

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goob
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Posts: 552
From:
Registered: Mar 2003

posted 02-11-2004 02:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for goob     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
When people come over I usually put her in my bedroom. I think that only makes her more upset b/c then she can't see anything. I can try to hold her but she is 100+lbs so it is difficult. Then the puppy won't leave people alone so I'm trying to hold him to.

Make sure that if you put her in the room, you don't let her out until she's quiet and calm. Letting her out while she's carryign on will only reinforce that. The dog I mentioned occasionally carries on in the room for a bit, but settles down after a while and then can be allowed out. Since she's so large, a tiedown may be a better approach if you try bringing her out. Make sure if you use an eyebolt that it's sunk into a stud (the frame under the part you see) though, not just the paneling or sheetrock, because it'll pull out of that. If the puppy is carrying on too, I would definitely only let one at a time out, that way you can focus your full attention on each and make sure they behave themselves. Plus that will keep them from feeding off of each others tension and behaving worse. Eventually, if you work with them on behaving around guests, they'll both be able to be out, but right now it's probably only making things harder.

quote:
I also am quite sure it is nothing medical. Around me and people she knows, she is 100% fine.

It may be nothing, but you won't know for sure unless you have her checked, and she does have a medical problem, her behavior will not get better until that is addressed. A thyroid problem or hormonal inbalance could cause shyness like you've described, the dog being fine with familiar people but not with strangers.

Also, since the lead dog is no longer there, YOU need to be sure yuou're filling that role, make sure she knows you're the one who deals with threats, not her. For that you might try the NILIF program, I'll post a link below.

A muzzle can actually make some types of aggression worse because it takes away the dog's ability to defend itself. That can raise the dog's stress level and actually make the problem even more pronounced when the muzzle is off. You also have to be careful, as most soft muzzles can be pulled off amazingly fast, even if fitted properly. if you want to try the muzzle approach, better to use a muzzle like you would get from a protection dog place, they have more points of contact and are harder for the dog to pull out of.

The idea Jamiya had about food is also good, but may not work if she's too stressed out from the person to eat the food.

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Kathy74
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Posts: 29
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Registered: Feb 2004

posted 02-13-2004 08:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kathy74     Edit/Delete Message
I just posted a question on the same type of thing. For us, getting our 2nd dog helped. When Serene sees Jersey getting attention, she realizes the new people aren't so bad, but is still very slow to approach. People ask us all the time "Is she as mean as she sounds?" and it breaks my heart cuz she's just a big suck! She had a history of abuse before we got her from a rescue. nilif training is helping with her. We were told that for timid dogs, if there is any question in her mind on who's the alpha of the house, it will cause more stress for her because a timid high strung dog does not really want to be an alpha.

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Rene
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Posts: 161
From:Oakley, CA 94561 USA
Registered: Nov 2003

posted 02-13-2004 09:03 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rene     Edit/Delete Message
Thanks for the info on the signs my insurance guy said i had to have one because i have a rotty she is also on my homeowners insurance. I have one sign in the window by the front door and one on my back gate i guess i will change them. Its kinda funny tho when someone knocks on the door they see the beware of dog sign then sebastain runs to the window and looks to see who it is so they see a little yorkie's head over a beware of dog sign they always laugh when i open the door then they see nala and she runs up and gives them kiss's even strangers (well she tries i tell her to sit and stay and she does) to bad the puppies dont have that down yet

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