Public Forum Proceed to Auspet's New Discussion Forum | Pet Directory | Classifieds | Home | LinkXchange


Click here to make Auspet.com your default home page

  Auspet - Message Boards
  Dogs - all types
  anti-kibble?

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
profile | register | preferences | faq | search

UBBFriend: Email This Page to Someone! next newest topic | next oldest topic
Author Topic:   anti-kibble?
Jamiya
Member

Posts: 1392
From:
Registered: Sep 2003

posted 01-27-2004 09:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jamiya     Edit/Delete Message
For those of you raw feeders out there - I know a lot of raw feeders are totally anti-kibble. I know from my own research that kibble, no matter how "good" it is, does not contain everything a dog needs and can cause or aggravate health issues.

BUT, in the interest of balance and anti-extreme measures, do you think kibble eaten in moderation - like maybe a meal or two a week, would necessarily be harmful? If the dog will readily eat both kibble and raw, wouldn't occasional meals of kibble contribute to the variety of foods? And any imbalances in the kibble (or potential harm to the teeth) would be counteracted by all the other foods the dog is eating the rest of the time?

Naturally, I am talking about a premium kibble, without preservatives or by-products or corn, etc.

Jas? Any others feeding raw? What do you think?


Jamiya

IP: Logged

honeybear
Member

Posts: 926
From:
Registered: May 2003

posted 01-27-2004 12:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for honeybear     Edit/Delete Message
Jimiya I cant answer your questions but I do have a book called natural nutrition for dogs and cats the ultimate diet that if you are interested I can send you. I got it from the holistic vet, but decided not to go the raw food route. It does say in it that you shouldnt supplement kibble. the book is very informative its got a section of what nutrients your pets should be getting and what to feed in order to get them. Interesting it says cats need raw bones too.
honeybear

IP: Logged

Jas

Moderator

Posts: 536
From:
Registered: May 2003

posted 01-27-2004 02:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jas     Edit/Delete Message
corn you say....opps J/K !!!!

I feed fully raw but have some puppy families and friends who feed half raw half kibble. One meal is raw other meal kibble. All are doing really well. Great for those who don't have the time to do complete raw & for those concerned about balancing properly. So no I don't think a few kibble meals will hurt.

I always make sure (as I am sure you know) that raw & processed aren't fed together. I'm sure you could give one or two kibble meals a week, but I would make sure it is more like 5 or 6 kibble meals at first, then cut it back further if desired (just to avoid stomach upset).

Are you feeding raw and kibble now?

IP: Logged

Jamiya
Member

Posts: 1392
From:
Registered: Sep 2003

posted 01-27-2004 03:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jamiya     Edit/Delete Message
Jas, I am feeding totally raw. We switched cold turkey last week. There seems to be nothing this dog's stomach can't handle, LOL. I am just wondering on days that it is too cold to send her outside to eat, or when we are out of town, if it might be handy to give her kibble.

Honeybear, I have that book. I did like it, as well as "Give Your Dog a Bone" by Ian Billinghurst. However, I am following more of a prey model - dogs don't need any grains or veggies. Nala is getting raw meaty bones, extra muscle meat if there is not enough on the bone, occasional fish, occasional eggs, and organ meats.

I also stocked up on Nature's Variety frozen raw right before I decided to switch (naturally!) so I am feeding that once in a while as well.

To me, it seems the bigger the variety, the better. I need to go back and read the sections in my books about what is wrong with kibble and evaluate whether the same things apply if it is not the ONLY thing being fed.

Incidentally Jas, I had heard that you are not supposed to feed kibble and raw at the same meal because they are digested at different rates. But I used to feed Nala kibble in the morning and NV frozen raw at night, and also gave her some kibble at the same time if she seemed terribly hungry. She never had a problem.

She is drinking a LOT less water now, which I am assured is normal. She also has even less stool than before, which was already significantly less than when she was on Science Diet (her kibble is Healthwise and I was moving to Natural Balance).


Jamiya

IP: Logged

kyles101
Member

Posts: 227
From:Perth, Western Australia
Registered: May 2003

posted 01-28-2004 03:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kyles101     Edit/Delete Message
jamiya! thanks for putting the homemade meal idea in my head. kuma loves the meals im giving her now. she doesnt seem so depressed at dinner time! only thing is i have to cook the meat because its pet grade chicken mince and i would never feel safe feeding that stuff raw. the chicken in supermarkets here cost alot of money [as does all the red meat due to high demand of australian meat products and drought] i still give her kibble in the morning to munch on if she wishes just to give her anything my meals might be missing. i worked out that making my own food and feeding the kibble in the morning only costs 38 dollars a month. better than paying 60 dollars a month for a bag of tasteless biccies that arent even the best brand.

IP: Logged

Jamiya
Member

Posts: 1392
From:
Registered: Sep 2003

posted 01-28-2004 04:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jamiya     Edit/Delete Message
Please make sure you do some research to be sure you are giving her everything she needs. Cooking food destroys a lot of the nutrients and enzymes so I'm not sure it's any better than kibble. It probably isn't any worse, though.

Organ meats, especially liver, is very important although you don't want to overdo it. If you can give her some chicken livers a few times a week, that would be great. Eggs are also cheap (or they are here in the U.S.) and they are a good protein source for occasional feeding.

COOKED BONES ARE NOT SAFE. Cooked chicken bones can splinter and really hurt or kill your dog. Raw bones are the only safe ones to give her, and then avoid the weight-bearing bones of ungulates (like cows and deer). See if you can find some turkey necks at a good price - maybe through a butcher that is currently throwing them away. There should be so much meat on the bone that you can't really tell there is a bone inside - if not, then supplement extra meat.

You might look into kangaroo meat. I don't know if that is cheaper or not. It takes some work to find meat at good prices, but it's well worth it for your dog. Whole rabbits are also very good to eat.

The bone is very important. Raw bone not only exercises her jaw and neck and shoulders, but it cleans her teeth and supplies many nutrients essential to the dog. It is critical to have the correct calcium-to-phosphorous ratio, which happens naturally when feeding meat and bone.

If you can find a vet or nutritionist that promotes raw feeding there, that would be great, too. I wonder where in Australia Ian Billinghurst lives? That would be an awesome vet to have!


Jamiya

IP: Logged

Samsintentions
Member

Posts: 944
From:Columbus, Tx ,USA
Registered: Dec 2003

posted 01-28-2004 05:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Samsintentions     Edit/Delete Message
I just have a self feeder with kibble in it for occasional snacks for my dogs. BUT they get "raw" food for their meals....I do cook their meat however to kill the bacteria... I also have the belief that if I fed them raw meats...that would antagonize my dogs to hunt (more than they already do). We have so many rabbits and stuff out here, plus my dogs are working dogs, I definately don't want them getting the liking for fresh blood or anything and take a bite out of one of the cattle, or livestock....

IP: Logged

Jamiya
Member

Posts: 1392
From:
Registered: Sep 2003

posted 01-28-2004 07:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jamiya     Edit/Delete Message
From what I have read, feeding raw does not encourage them to hunt for themselves. I have no personal experience with that, though.

Here is some info I posted under another thread:

"Give Your Dog a Bone," by Ian Billinghurst lists these reasons for not cooking food (there is more detail in the book):

destroys vitamins
destroys enzymes
destroys anti-oxidants
reduces protein value and availability
produces "foreign" foods
no teeth cleaning
no exercise required to eat it

More on the "foreign" foods - "When food is cooked, the...major nutrients are changed. The greater the degree of cooking, the greater the changes. The greater the changes, the more indigestible the food becomes. Also, the more the body regards it as foreign molecules." This results in all sorts of things such as allergies, auto-immune dieseases (like arthritis), and cancer.

Cooking does make the food more palatable, which is not necessarily good. Billinghurst says that cooked food is "addictive" because it tastes so good. A result of this is the loss of the dog's instinct to choose foods. It can also create an unbalanced diet because the dog will develop favorites and "train" you to only cook those particular foods. It makes changing the diet more difficult and contributes to obesity.

The bottom line: "When food is cooked, it retains sufficient nutrients to keep your dog alive with no obvious immediate problems. It does not, however, allow your dog to have a long, healthy, trouble-free life. It is responsible for much ill health including cancer, kidney disease, heart disease, arthritis, pancreatic disease etc. In short, dogs fed on cooked foods live shorter, less healthy, more miserable lives."

Then again, you should hear what he has to say about kibble and canned food. So I really don't know if cooking food is a step up from kibble or not, I just know it is a leap down from raw.

That being said, perhaps if you supplement enzymes, vitamins, and anti-oxidants, some of the bad effects can be countered. But when you start messing with a lot of supplements and trying to determine how much is enough and not too much and balance with the other components of the diet - well it all gets rather complicated.

Mother Nature had it right to begin with. A prey animal has everything in the correct proportions for our dogs to eat. People have been trying to approximate that ever since with kibble because it is convenient.

Another book that has been recommended (I have not read it yet) is Tom Lonsdale's "Raw Meaty Bones" (http://www.sitstay.com/store/books/diet1.shtml).

If you are interested, you could join the rawfeeding Yahoo list and get some information. It is pretty high volume and a lot of people just read and don't post unless they have questions. Others post up a storm. I know there have been several messages lately about people with dogs that have (or had) seizures and there are probably more in the archives.

If you are interested, you can join here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/


Jamiya

IP: Logged

honeybear
Member

Posts: 926
From:
Registered: May 2003

posted 01-28-2004 08:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for honeybear     Edit/Delete Message
Samsintentions, I have book called Natural nutrition for dogs and cats a guide to feeding raw and it states: Eating Raw meat in a homemade meal does not encourage your pet to kill animals, though this suggestion is often made. The instinct to chase and kill depends on your pets individual prey drive and its early lessons from its mother of other animals. Your dog does not connect the meat in its dish to a cow grazing in a pasture.

Just an FYI
Honeybear

IP: Logged

Samsintentions
Member

Posts: 944
From:Columbus, Tx ,USA
Registered: Dec 2003

posted 01-28-2004 09:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Samsintentions     Edit/Delete Message
Really?? I was always told that it would encourage them.....thats good to know...Thanks.

IP: Logged

Jamiya
Member

Posts: 1392
From:
Registered: Sep 2003

posted 01-28-2004 11:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jamiya     Edit/Delete Message
I think this fallacy falls in the same category with "hunting dogs must always live outside or they will not be good hunting dogs." That one is not true, either!

It's hard when you have "always" heard something to suddenly find it is false. It makes you really start to question everything, which eventually will drive you insane!


Jamiya

IP: Logged

Samsintentions
Member

Posts: 944
From:Columbus, Tx ,USA
Registered: Dec 2003

posted 01-28-2004 12:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Samsintentions     Edit/Delete Message
yup, definately my case. As for huntin dogs living outside....hmmm..neverheard that one.

Herding dogs, now thats diffrent. They have to start off at really young age in training. But I've never seen a diffrence from one that lived inside, as to one outside....I have as far as the ages go though. The older, the harder to train.

I'll stick with my version of the raw diet though, I still think that some bacteria is harmful and needs to be eliminated before they consume it....I don't cook the crud out of it...but to about med-rare/medium.

IP: Logged

All times are ET (US)

next newest topic | next oldest topic

Administrative Options: Close Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic
Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Hop to:

Contact Us | Auspet.com


Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.45c
















© 1999-2017 AusPet.com