posted 12-18-2003 07:12 AM         

I like this quote:
"If you spend a little time observing the physical condition of animals in the wild, you will find that so-called degenerative or old age diseases are relatively unknown to them. Except for the danger from natural predators, wild animals generally live quite long and healthy lives. Now, what happens when we domesticate animals and make them into house pets? Are you aware that they quickly develop the same diseases as their human "owners"? We must be making the same mistake with them that we're making with ourselves."
http://www.living-foods.com/articles/rawpetfood.html

posted 12-18-2003 07:28 AM         

We have so much wildlife out here its unbelieveable!!! I rarely see a skinny coyote, the rabbits are always fat, and the deer! oh fat fat fat....

Mos poeple find it a "necessary" to cook the meats to a pulp, when I fix my dogs meals, I only heat the meat until it reaches 250degrees f. This will kill the bacteria, and anything in it, yet keep it fresh.

posted 12-18-2003 09:31 AM         

I need to research more. Be sure to look at Dr. Billinghurst's rebuttal to this article, so you can get both sides of the story.

How did you come up with 250 F, Samsintentions? Does that temperature denature the enzymes? Can you provide a source?

posted 12-19-2003 08:46 AM         

The statement is made over and over again how wild dogs and cats eat raw meat, they are adapted to it, etc. The conclusion being that it is what is best for them.

I think there is a fallacy in that argument. Wild dogs and cats may die of intestinal parasites or bacteria from eating raw meat. Or maybe they don't. I have read they are less likely to be affected by such things than we are, but I have also read that it does happen.

They eat raw meat in the wild because they have to. I'm sure their physiology has adapted to such a diet. People 200 years ago could drink out of streams without contracting giardia, probably because they developed an immunity to it (or died from it when they were young). But can we assume that a domestic cat that has never been exposed to e. coli or toxoplasmosis would necessarily fight it off as well as their wild counterparts would?

I am very careful to not succumb to the "they do that in the wild therefore it is good for them" theory. My dog would eat rocks if I wasn't there to stop her - I can't think that is good for her. While they obviously are designed to eat what they would eat in the wild, does that mean that foods that they would not have access to are NOT good for them? In some cases yes, but in other cases I would have to say no. For instance, Dr. Billinghurst ("Give Your Dog a Bone" author) says his dogs thrive on eggs, which are not a part of a wild dog's diet.

So, my question is, does anyone have some good sources that talk about cooking meat, or partially cooking meat, and what the real effects are? At what temperature are enzymes denatured, and is it possible to add back what is missing?

I have thought about using the Nature's Variety kibble as a halfway between raw and kibble, and while this may be okay for the dog, everything I have read says cats really need wet food.

I will be looking, too, but if anyone has already done some of this research, please point me in the right direction!

posted 12-19-2003 09:12 AM         

They make a comparable product for cats. The composition (at least for the cats) is very similar to the recipes for preparing raw food that I have found.

Anyone have any experience with this company or their food?

posted 12-19-2003 02:50 PM         

Dr. Pitcarins Complete Guide to Natural Health and Healing for Dogs and Cats.

I feed a natural diet for my dogs as well. However...I can not bring myself to feed them completely raw. I have to let it get some heat. Even though cooking food does diminish some of the nutrients I believe it still has to be better than commercial food.

First of all, think of it this way. Atleast in our diets we do get fresh veggies, fruits, and meat. Our dogs and cats are expected to live on processed foods and junk! There is no freshness or life to their diets when fed strictly kibble. Imagine eating Uncle Bens oatmeal every day for the rest of yourlife and sometimes getting a different flavor here and there. Would you be very healthy? or happy for that manner? Its not ok for us, yet it is ok for our pets?
Since the 1960's veterinarians have seen a major deterioration in our pets health. Cancers, Tumors, These things were never prevelant in our pets before.
Even with some of your high quality dog foods. They are still processed in the same way as your smaller poorer quality feeds are.
Prolonged high temperatures used to sterlize some pet foods destroy much of the usefulness of even those protiens that have a high diegestable and biological value. The heat causes some protiens to combine with certain sugers, forming compounds that cant be broken down by the body's digestive system. Which cause them to become trapped in the bodies tissues.
So even then the ingredients and lables are misleading.
I would never trust a dog food label that lists anything like meal, meat, chicken, poultry, or fish by products. Digest of poultry by products, dried animal digest, fish meal....etc etc. They might as well just say, beaks, feathers, hair, newspapers, feces....How nutritious does that sound?
The Pet Food Institute which represents this industry has repeadetly sought permission from the FDA to use more of these collective ingredient terms. The industry members argue that it allows them to choose a least cost mix.
Plus all of the chemicals that are added to our pets food! Look at the ingredients list on your dogs food. Things such as propylene glycol has been known to cause illness in dogs. ammoniated glycyrhizin is another sweetner, it is also considered a potent drug and should be tested for further safety...Yet we feed this to our dogs? I could go on for ever and ever about the different combinations of chemicals in our dogs food. Since 1989 some 70,000 chemicals have been introduced into our society with 3,000 chemicals being added annually. As of 1990 only 2,000 of these chemicals in every day use had been tested for their ability to cause cancer in animals....and half were found capable of doing so!

This is just a tiny amount of the problems that we face by feeding our dogs commercial foods. Not to mention that meat and grains that have been labled as diseased, rancid, and not fit for human consumption by the FDA are then sent to commercial pet food plants.

Even if the holistic dog food companies use products that are human grade, they still use the chemicals.

So all in all I am not feeding my dogs a home cooked diet because thats what mother nature fed them in the wild but because of the horrors of the things that are found in dog food.

Since I have been feeding this diet I have seen remarkable improvement in my pets health. Chopper who has sever hip disphagia and arthritis no longer requires rimadyl. He runs, plays, and catches, and jumps like I have never seen him do before when he used sometimes refused to even go outside to use the bathroom.

Sorry about all the info, this is just one topic that I find is very important that is one of the most overlooked issues with our pets.

posted 12-19-2003 04:19 PM         

my parents sam has found eggs on the ground in the woods, and once a newly hatched chick in a nest on the ground and happily scooped them up.

seems to be a veterinarian should have plenty of training to deal with parasites and bacterial infections should they occur, they are always worming puppies, dogs, and giving medications for bacterias, albon this, flagyl that

the question is what is the safest way

what does freezing kill
what does freeze-drying do
and what are the risks of just plane raw

i use frozen raw pet foods on puppies
the same on our cat, but used human grade hormone/anti free meats and bones for our cat out of the butchers case for years and our cat has been very healthy, the only thing she does is have a skin irritation to fleas

i think the best thing to do is the best we can do, personally, and ultimately there is an experience, whether true or not, of taking a risk feeding raw that somehow seems scarier than feeding a dog cooked food, or kibble. this is just a projected fear, because the risks of cancer and all sorts of horrible diseases that vets don't fear are there with cooked pet foods, especially commercial foods.

a friend of mine had a childhood dog that was 18 or 19 years old, on kibble actually, and table scraps, but he was blind and had a tumor on his head. i recommended raw foods so while he was staying at his parents house for a short while after moving back to town he fed the dog raw eggs and the tumor shrank away. who cares if dogs in the wild ate raw chicken eggs? the thing is that nature has laws, it has an operating procedure, and we have free will and we can generate ideas, such as microwaves, or nuclear weapons, and apply them to our physical world, such as kibble feeding, but it doesn't alter the basic operating procedures of life

life consumes life, and without our interference, the dog species would, as it is, continue to do just fine on raw foods as mother nature intended

posted 12-19-2003 10:25 PM         

To answer some questions that were asked:

This page has some information on how to prevent food borne illnesses: http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/seniorse.html

Towards the bottom of the page it has the temperatures to cook certain foods. You have to remember that with most foods they don't just have to reach that temperature, usually you have to hold the food at that temperature for a certain amount of time. If I can find something with the times on it, I will post it.

posted 12-20-2003 10:10 AM         

my puppies are thriving with no ill effects, as well as our cat

i've been eating raw eggs daily for years with no ill effects (organic)

i eat raw fish, and have eaten raw beef, though more often dried it at low temperatures in a deyhydrator, along with buffalo and ostrich

my grandmother ate raw hamburg for years, was never sick, and, honestly, her health went downhill when she stopped doing it

dogs in the wild will eat things that have been lying around rotting, and the species survives

dogs have a highly acidic digestive system, if they did not evolve to live on raw foods, in spite of bacteria, etc., they wouldn't be around anymore

cooked food can harbor bacteria, etc..

the question is, which is more deadly?? which is more risky??

i've had puppies eating kibble and needing to be treated with albon and flagyl for bacteria this and that, with diarreah, etc..

what i've found with raw foods is that the stools firm up, lose their odor, and can be picked up with bare hands without leaving hardly a trace of residue

they look extremely healthy, and normal compared with pet food poops

the question is what are these unnatural foods doing to the dog's digestive environment and are they actually fostering harmful bacteria growth?

the vets are filled with sick animals fed cooked foods, and people who feed their animals raw food find they see the vet a lot less often if you start talking to them. vets i've found who recommend raw foods to their patients find their scope of practice changes to a more nutritional one, with a reduction in more common veterinary needs.

a great book to read on the subject is dr ian billinghurst's give your dog a bone, he is an australian vet who has seen both sides of the issue and speaks well about the topic

if there was such a problem with raw meats, zoos would cook food before giving it to their captive carnivores

posted 12-21-2003 09:23 PM         

quote:

---

The statement is made over and over again how wild dogs and cats eat raw meat, they are adapted to it, etc. The conclusion being that it is what is best for them.

I think there is a fallacy in that argument. Wild dogs and cats may die of intestinal parasites or bacteria from eating raw meat. Or maybe they don't. I have read they are less likely to be affected by such things than we are, but I have also read that it does happen.

---

Well I wouldn't exactly call it a fallacy. Before kibble was invented (1950's or 60's??) what did *domesticated* dogs & cats eat? A portion was bones, food scraps, and parts of animals that families didn't eat, both in the Raw and cooked form. Cats and dogs are natural hunters that eat their prey. Canines, wild or domesticated share many of the same characteristics despite adaptation or evolution. It is incorrect for people to preach that raw fed dogs do not get sick or can not get salmonella I believe they can BUT a healthy, dog is less likely to succumb to illness. Don't think that packaged kibbles are free from ecoli and salmonella either. Domesticated animals are the only existing animals who eat processed food!!! This really strikes a cord for me. Besides I like knowing what is in my dog's food. Slaughter houses with 4D animals and toxic/foreign substances just don't appeal to me. I prefer raw for my dogs, but if I had to I would home cook before opting to give "cereal" food. As a last resort I would look at a premium kibble. I would not have animals if my only option was to them feed grocery store, junk food kibble.

quote:

---

They eat raw meat in the wild because they have to. I'm sure their physiology has adapted to such a diet.

---

But they didn't have to. Cleaning up the remainders of human leftovers accounted for a portion of the canine diet for many years, yet they would still hunt. There is intelligence required to hunt, such an intelligent animal surely would realize the ease of waiting for human leftovers - yet sure enough wild or domesticated dogs still chose to hunt. Is it so inconceivable to think that dogs *like* the taste of raw meat?

quote:

---

People 200 years ago could drink out of streams without contracting giardia, probably because they developed an immunity to it (or died from it when they were young). But can we assume that a domestic cat that has never been exposed to e. coli or toxoplasmosis would necessarily fight it off as well as their wild counterparts would?

---

Have dogs ever discovered a rotting animal carcass, gotten into garbage refuse, ingested other animal feces, contaminated kibble? If so then I'm sure there has been exposure to bacteria/parasites. But why don't the majority get sick? We are naive if we think because a dog is kibble fed exposure to bacteria doesn't exist, like humans it happens on a continuing basis. Immunity is also build up to certain things. According a dogs physiology dogs and cats are meat eaters. From prey drive to canine teeth to their short digestive systems and digestive enzymes needed to eat meat that is why many of them do thrive on a raw diet. Domesticated or not it hasn't changed the fact that dogs still hunt, think, behave, eat and live as a wild animal would. I'm not saying raw is right for everydog, or that it will make Fluffy live to 20 and I believe diet is important but not the only factor for a dog to live a quality life. Longevity can be attributed to many things...genetics, exercise....etc.

There are many websites and books written about home-cooked diets. I believe dogs & cats could do ok on a properly balanced low temp cooked diet. But then I'm aware heat destroys/damages many EFA's, enzymes, vits & minerals and turns fatty acids into transfats. I'm sure its possible to create a healthy cooked balanced canine diet but what a lot of work! I suppose I am somewhat impartial to raw because my dogs have been thriving on it for a few years. Their blood work levels (I test every year) always come back bang on which has led me to believe this IS what is working for them. ;-) I like MaydaysMom's analogy of eating Uncle Ben's oatmeal everyday lol. And a great explanatory post too, Mayday, well said! Great post too Scrappy, I agree! Canines wouldn't be here if raw food was the sole cause of death or parasites. People do need to use proper food handling techniques just like when we prepare meats for ourselves!

WE thrive on fresh food and know it is good for us....so why wouldn't the same hold true for animals? There are risks to ANY method of feeding!