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Author Topic:   self control
Jamiya
Member

Posts: 1392
From:
Registered: Sep 2003

posted 12-06-2003 08:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jamiya     Edit/Delete Message
Hey guys. I was reading Suzanne Clothier's "Bones Would Rain from the Sky" book and it is so awesome!

For those of you who have it, check out Chapter 6 and the story of the dog, Angel. It sounds like this technique will be very useful with Nala. I also thought of Maisey's recent post about Witt's pulling when he is excited - go read this chapter, Maisey!

For those that don't have the book - go get it! And until then, the gist is that a lot of "problems" are rooted at the most basic level - your relationship with your dog. Angel was a very smart dog but his owner had problems with him totally losing control and lunging around on the leash and barking madly, etc, when under certain stimulating situations (like being around a bunch of other excited dogs).

Suzanne insisted that the problem was in the connection to the dog. You need to pay attention to your dog and truly be with him, and teach your dog to be with you as well. Not just next to each other, but TOGETHER.

So she has this anecdote about first getting Angel to pay attention to her, by drawing on his love of motion and using treats. Then she walks him by her turkeys, and the dog freezes to stare at them. She calls his name, but there is no response at all. No twitch of the ears, no darting glance, nothing. He really can't hear her. (Nala does this with the cats.)

So instead of jerking him off his feet with his collar as some would suggest, she regards him like you would a spouse who was engaged doing something else and you were trying to get his attention. She called his name softly, jingled the lead, tapped him on the head gently - all the while waiting for him to acknowledge her even a tiny bit. When he finally did, she slowly managed to guide him away from the turkeys. It was very important to get him away before he totally overloaded and lost control.

Her theory is that if you can teach a dog to attend to you and maintain your connection even in the face of exciting things going on around him, he will listen to you and respond to you. She doesn't agree with some trainers who make the dog constantly look at the handler - because a dog can look at you and not be paying attention! She believes a dog can and should look at the interesting things in the world around him, BUT also learn to maintain his connection with the handler at the same time. It's another aspect of teaching self-control, as her free article talks about (http://www.flyingdogpress.com/artlibreg.htm).

She says she can tell a lot about the relationship between a person and their dog by how they walk together.

So anyway, I love this book!


Jamiya

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Nik
Member

Posts: 115
From:UK
Registered: Nov 2003

posted 12-06-2003 09:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Nik     Edit/Delete Message
I'm going to have to have a scout around for this book, thanks
The 'saying his name softly' thing sounds like something I should try. When I'm home with Floob he does *almost* everything I ask of him, however, when we're out on a walk he likes to think he's alone.
I know he's still very young and only been going out in the big wide world for 2 weeks, but still, I want him to pay attention to me now before it's too late.

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nern

Moderator

Posts: 1591
From:NY, USA
Registered: Oct 2002

posted 12-06-2003 07:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for nern     Edit/Delete Message
Sounds like an excellent book! I think I may buy it after the holidays.

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Jas

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Posts: 536
From:
Registered: May 2003

posted 12-06-2003 08:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jas     Edit/Delete Message
Hi Jamiya, I'm happy to hear you got her book!!! Glad I recommended it and that you're finding it helpful!!

Isn't it a great book!

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goob
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Posts: 552
From:
Registered: Mar 2003

posted 12-06-2003 10:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for goob     Edit/Delete Message
I realize this is a bit OT, but another thing that sometimes works to get a dog to "keep one ear/eye on you", is to put them on a really long line (at least 50 ft, and only for safety), and start walking with them (you can do it in the house too, though it can be a bit harder than outside), then when they something else catches their eye, quietly sneak away and hide behind something. Nine times out of ten, the dog will realize after a few seconds that you're gone, and start looking for you. When they find you, love them up (if she likes food/treats, have them ready), then head back out on your walk. Repeat this at least several times during the walk,and they SHOULD start a) realizing that you really like it when they "find" you, and b) glancing at you occasionally to make sure you're not sneaking off again. I used this with Annie (very high drive, likes to chase things, at first, couldn't care less about me, etc), and now, I usually can't "sneak" off from her, when we do this, I just bolt away and get as far as possible before she catches me.

It did cause a bit of a stir-up on the "stay" though, as when I first made her sit, then wandered off, she thought for sure I was trying to sneak away and hide . Once she understood that I'd be back though, she's done pretty good (now she'll hold a sit/down stay in the living room while I make food, check email, etc in other rooms of the house, then come back 15-20 minutes or so later to release her and play with her), so I can't complain. She's unshakeable when we go for walks offleash (only in fields, etc when I'm sure there's no one else around), stays within 5 ft or so, keeps one ear flicked back, and glances at me every few seconds to make sure I'm not thinking of escaping; unless I shoo her out to run, or we go someplace where she knows she's allowed to run around.

The only thing I can think of that might be a downside in your case is that she might decide you're being out of line and try to herd you back into shape, but I don't remember you ever saying that that had been a problem, so I dunno.

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GoodboysBaddogs
Member

Posts: 409
From:Los Angeles, Ca.
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 12-06-2003 10:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for GoodboysBaddogs     Edit/Delete Message
Sounds like a good writer/book.

"She says she can tell a lot about the relationship between a person and their dog by how they walk together."

I've heard this before, and somewhat agree w/ her. Although, if she saw me "walking" w/ my boys (like right after we get out of the car), she would think that our relationship is terrible! My boys like to P U L L ! ! But, it's because i let them. I used to try to control it when they were younger, but as they got older, i actually wanted them to get the exercise from "pulling"--me. It gives me a slightly good upper body workout along when we're walking (mostly arms).

BUT, if she saw us "running/jogging" thats a whole different picture! She'd probably think that i was some expert trainer... LOL! Well, i'm just saying this because i'm so proud of my doggs from how far they've come to understanding our "bond" as a "unit/team" when we're out exercising. Basically TOGETHER, like you've mentioned.
When we run, to me it's a beautiful site! Both my dogs are actually in harmony to "ME" !!! It's sSoOoOoO cool! Usually it's my Pei on my right, & my AB on my left. Well, at least that's the way i'm noticing how they like the formation.
I'm almost to a point where i don't have to pull/tug the leash (i have two leads connected to 1 main leash that i mainly hold) when one of them lags behind, all i have to say is "come-on", or "hurry-up", (usually it's my AB believe it or not ). My Pei is usually the one that i will have to tell "easy", & he eases back, so that their running right beside me. He usually looks right up at me too, which keeps me otivated to run longer/faster, because i know he's "tuned" into me.
I trust my AB being tuned into me almost all the time. It my Pei that i would say has the character somewhat like a Beagle(if you could understand that).

I'd never thought that i would be able to accomplish this w/ my boys, but i guess this was a good example of 'consistancy'. Honestly, i noticed the progress was pretty fast, not only because we frequenlty go out for hikes & runs, but they also got to a point where they liked the running part of our exercise routines. Dogs naturally like to run "free", but i think they understand the whole harmony part of it. I think they understand & enjoy the importance of the bond & togetherness of our relationship & as a team. Running/Jogging w/ a dog(s) makes it so much funner & fulfilling....

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GoodboysBaddogs
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Posts: 409
From:Los Angeles, Ca.
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 12-06-2003 10:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for GoodboysBaddogs     Edit/Delete Message
Goob:

That's funny, my AB's the same way ! Even when i let them go run-free, my AB will only run as far as probably 30 feet, then he'll wait for me to get closer before he moves on. Throughout all this, he also constantly looks back to see where i'm at. I think this is due to our hide & seek games at home, and like what you mentioned. Hiding behind a tree or something, when their not looking.
My Pei is a whole different story. I release him, & he's a gone. He only looks back if it somehow clicks in his brain that he actually was w/ others... LOL! He's kinda like a Beagle. I notice he'll pick up a scent or tsomething, and he's on a mission!
But, i think i got him good once where we were all running (i had them off-leash), my "trusty" AB was besides me, and i quickly ran off onto a side trail from the one that we were originally running on. When it came to my Pei's senses that he's now running alone, i notice he started looking/back-tracking for us. The longer he looked, the more i noticed he would panic. His search for us became so intense that, even when i was calling him, he would'nt hear me and stick to his sense of smell of us on the trail. About 100 yards up the mountain, before he would make a last turn where i would'nt have been able to see him anymore, he suddenly slowed down to a stop. Sniffed the ground and air a little, then quickly came running back towards the direction he started back-tracking (towards my AB & i). He ran right passed our side-trail, and then i called & called untill he noticed my voice loud & clear. He eventually saw us & w/ his foamy-mouth was so relieved to not loose us again. Before that day he was extra terrible in listening to me when called (off-leash). But now, i know he knows the improtance of his name when called. He's doing better every outting we go on.

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Maisey
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Posts: 1387
From:Portland, Oregon US
Registered: Sep 2003

posted 12-07-2003 12:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Maisey     Edit/Delete Message
Goob, I just watched a video tape done by Chris Bach on the "Third Way Training". I borrowed it from a friend. She also says she does the hiding thing with each puppy . She said she likes to do it at about 10 weeks, she takes them for a walk in the woods near her home and waits until they aren't paying attention and then hides, she lets them worry a little and then reappears all happy and full of loves. She says doing this once or twice is all it takes to make a dog realize it's their job to keep track of mom.(or dad)She says from then on they will check in frequently, always keeping track of you instead of the other way around. She does have one dog that she said this had no effect on what so ever. it is her own dog, and she talks about this particular dog alot. The dog has very few sensitivities if any. I found it interesting because i have done this with both dogs when they were pups, but of course I didn't do it knowing what I was doing! I was mostly playing...and curious about their reaction when they realized i was lost.

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Jamiya
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Posts: 1392
From:
Registered: Sep 2003

posted 12-07-2003 08:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jamiya     Edit/Delete Message
That is similar to what Suzanne did in the book. She had to get the dog interested in her to begin with, since it was not her dog. She did this by running backwards away from him and calling him and giving him lots of praise and treats for coming. She played this game with him until he was constantly following her around, hoping she would start the game again. Then she started walking with him, which is where they encountered the turkeys. She then had the owner be "more exciting" than the turkeys to distract the dog, until he learned to keep an eye on his owner even when he was watching the birds.

Nala definitely likes me to be in sight. I like the sound of your technique - I will give it a try. I think the only thing it will hamper is my already small ability to leave her outside alone for a few minutes (or even shoo her out to do her business and come right back in). She is very upset if I don't go out with her and stand there while she plays, even though I am not involved in the game.

I'm not sure where I could hide in the yard! And she usually does keep an eye on me in case I try to sneak back into the house. But maybe I should do this out in the park, where she is distracted by all the new stuff around her.


Jamiya

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