posted 11-24-2003 07:56 AM         

I know, these are all things I should be doing with her at home. But obviously I suck at it. I am a softie and I hate having her tied to me. She gets bored and I have enough guilt from her being crated all day. And what's more, she is going to have to be boarded for almost 2 weeks over the holidays anyway. Even though the place I have reservations to board her is a nice place and she will get to play with other dogs, the board and train would allow her to be in a real house AND learning stuff at the same time.

I think I really need to consider this. Nala would actually be there for 4 weeks, because of the way our vacations fall and the times she has available. She would work her for the extra week. I wonder if I should make it 5 weeks and have her do the off-leash stuff as well.

I sort of feel like a failure, but I also think this might be better in the long run for my relationship with Nala. I know Nala can read my emotions and if I am ripping myself up feeling bad for keeping her tethered, she will know it and react accordingly. I second guess everything I do with her and she knows it.

When you pick up from the board and train, you have a private lesson and the trainer teaches you how to handle the dog with the new training and what to do when Nala tests us at home.

You can visit once a week. She assures us that dogs do not forget that quickly. I know she is right, but still...

I have an appointment for a lesson with her on Wednesday. I wish I had found her when we first got Nala. She said she will be able to tell from the way we interact what is going on (read: what I am doing wrong).

Anyone have any ideas on this? If I were home full time and didn't have kids, maybe I would have a better shot at doing what is necessary without having someone else train her. I just don't know.

posted 11-24-2003 08:27 AM         

I called the shelter's behavior line months ago and she gave me some info, but no names of trainers. I talked to the same person this time and asked for names and got this referral. I wish she had given me the name the first time I called. I would have done it by now. I have been wanting someone to come to the house so they can see Nala in action.

I already have an appointment with the other trainer, though, and I am considering her board and train option, so I guess I will go that way for now.

posted 11-24-2003 09:54 AM         

But she does need to be boarded anyway. It may as well be constructive time.

I am learning more about tethering her to me on another board. I had planned to do that from the start but it never worked out like I thought it would so I quit. I think it's the only way I will get control over her. I am going shopping for a chain lead over lunch. I hope I can find a safe one.

I will probably do the board and train. It still makes me feel like a failure, though. I guess I shouldn't consider fostering after all.

Part of the problem is my husband. I know he thinks confining her to one room and crating her and tethering her is all martian stuff. He gets a dog, tosses it in the house (or backyard is what he prefers) and then it magically turns into a good dog. I turn every endeavor into a science and he just wants to go with the flow. And I suppose my way rarely works so maybe he has something. He does everything "wrong" but it works for him. I guess maybe he goes with his instinct, but I don't have instinct I have books and research.

posted 11-24-2003 10:07 AM         

Hi Jamiya, this is in answer to your question, of the dog that I had that jumed on me, when I came home from work.
Yes he stopped! When I would turn my body away from him, he would still try in the begining, but after a few days, he stopped. The longer I ignored him, the better he would get. I realize that you have a speacial case on your hands, so I don't know if that will work for you, or not.

Another thing the trainer taught me was: to get a long leash, and go to the park, or a large open field, and walk him in a diamond shape pattern (like a baseball field) ignoring him the whole time. This taught him how to heal. Man I wish I could remember the name of the video tape he gave me. (loaned it out years ago, and never got it back) Anyway it really worked! with his methods, I taught my dog all kinds of things. Sincerely, Susan

posted 11-24-2003 10:29 AM         

i dont know. i am scared of puppies. i have never owned one. i know i would not be able to handle them at all, nor trained them like they need to be trained. what i am sayying is i wouldnt be able to do half the stuff you have done, and i have more time on my hands!! you really did great. i hope this makes you feel a little better! good luck with what ever you do!!
lotty

posted 11-24-2003 11:42 AM         

I'm still not decided, though. It's only 2 weeks until I would have to drop her off. I just don't know what to do. I think I will know better on Wednesday after our first lesson. The trainer said she would be able to advise me better after she sees us together. It doesn't sound like she is just out for money. Anyone who has 8 dogs has to love them.

I am on my way to the other board, so I may not be as up to date on posts as you are. I do think I would eventually get her trained on my own, with the help of a trainer or behaviorist. But this may be the shorter road and what is better for my family.

posted 11-24-2003 12:41 PM         

I will definitely still need to learn how to train her and how to interact with her in order for the training to "stick" at home. And I certainly don't intend to stop training her after she is done with the program (if we do it). I am still going to train her in agility and perhaps with herding stock if she shows any interest in it. Not to mention ongoing obedience and tackling new issues as they arise.

To me, it seems like trying to learn to ride a bike without using training wheels first. With absolutely no experience training a dog, I am floundering around trying to train a dog that would definitely be charactized as "not a dog for people new to dogs." The ideal thing would have been to get a soft, compliant dog for my first attempt at training. But we can't fix that part of it now.

By getting her the basics, I will have my training wheels on and will learn how to take them off and ride solo. I will certainly continue the private lessons even if she is boarded. And I will need to learn to be consistent at home, and to handle new issues as they arise.

I do agree that I will miss out on part of the bond by not training her totally myself. But I don't believe that 4 weeks with a trainer is going to hurt my relationship with my dog. But I would miss her little face every day! At least I would be sure she is in good hands while we are out of town.

Maybe I can go live with the trainer for a month....

posted 11-24-2003 01:28 PM         

Depends on the dog and what your answer is.

posted 11-24-2003 01:36 PM         

By getting her the basics, I will have my training wheels on and will learn how to take them off and ride solo. I will certainly continue the private lessons even if she is boarded. And I will need to learn to be consistent at home, and to handle new issues as they arise.
"

I think this training and boardng will help you get the jump start you need. Yoou will know when you meet with her if is the right choice.

posted 11-24-2003 02:33 PM         

And the answer to why the trainer working with me at home can't be the training wheels....well, she could, and that may be the way we go. BUT I can't help but think that since she needs to be boarded anyway she may as well get something done. The kennel I was going to board her at does offer training as well - I could look into that, too.

AND it will take ages longer if I do it by myself. I have a million questions already about this tethering thing. I must be the biggest dog training idiot ever. Starting a new thread....

posted 11-24-2003 08:10 PM         

I doubt I would ever have been able to figure out how to work WITH her if I hadn't first anchored the seeds of our relationship that were born from the time I spent trying various things and watching her reactions to them, adjusting them, and retrying, until they were right for her. A free thinking dog is not for everyone, and in order for a person to be able to handle such a dog, they themselves must learn to be free thinking and be able to adapt their methods to their dog's needs at any particular time.

IMO, the key to being able to work with a thinking dog is to make yourself the motivator. You have to make yourself SO wonderful that she'll want to hang out with you every chance she gets, and will run at your beckon and call. The way to do this may be through toys, or treats, OR through taking away all things she values and making her EARN them. You say she's not interested in listening if you can't catch her... I would let that be her choice, BUT would make it so that NOT listening was a much less viable option. In your dog's case, I might take up her food, and instead dole out kibbles as rewards for her behaving. If she gets hungry enough, she'll do anything for food, and she will get hungry enough after maybe a few days of acting like a fool. Once you have that, you have the key. ALWAYS have kibble on you when you're around her, but keep it somewhere inconspicuous, like in your pocket, then at random times, give a command, and when she does it, give a kibble. If she doesn't.... her loss. Eventually she's going to learn that the only way she gets food is by doing what you tell her to, THEN she's going to start giving you the concentration you're looking for, because she'll be waiting for your next command... her next "meal". If the "other board" is the one I'm thinking it is, then you also got good advice there, which could be used in conjunction with this to get the message across better.

I agree 100% with Maisey's posts, about YOU being the one who needs to do the training. My dog will behave perfectly for me, responds almost immediately to every command, some I don't even have to say or give obvious signals for, just a look or a nod, and she does them. My aunt (her actual owner, though she spends 95% of her time here) and her BF can't get her to do the simplest of things, she frequently runs away from them if they try to take her out without a leash, steals food from them (actually snatches it from their hands), bolts out the door, etc, because she has no reason or desire to respect them OR their rules. They tried briefly to train her at one point, for about 2 months, then gave up because she was "stupid" and "stubborn". With work, she would probably listen to them, but IMO, she would still defer to me over them, because it was me who broke the initial "wall" between her and those behaviors, and made the connections for her.

In the house, she's not skulking around after me all day, but you can bet that when I call her, she comes flying, because she knows I'm ready to do some work, and that she might get something good out of it. The WORST thing I can do in a training session is leave. My leaving "turns off" the fun, and the good things that happen when I work with her, so that's even worse than a harsh verbal or leash correction, she'll just stand there watching, tail and ears down, until I come back (of course, it really threw me for a loop last week when we were practicing heeling, and I got fed up with her lagging on the turns, tossed down the leash and walked off about 50 ft, only to turn and see her sitting there calmly and expectantly, just as she had been when we'd been working on stays the day before ). If you're using her meals as her reward, it will be even WORSE if you walk off, because that means the feeder has been turned off... turn you off, don't eat for a while.

posted 11-25-2003 04:04 AM         

Also, she needs to listen not just to me, but to my husband and children as well. She can't be a one person dog. If she wants to follow me around and if I'm the only one she does tricks for that's fine, but she cannot be jumping up on people and nipping the children and chasing the cats just because I am not there.

This is the trainer I am looking at:

"Joan Meyer
Triune Canine Training Center Instructor
Joan began her dog training career in 1974 with a neighbor's 150 pound Saint Bernard. She taught him obedience and to go down slides, over the see saw and to jump bicycle racks. The love for dog training was known at this young age of 12.

After obtaining a Bachelor of Science in Biology from Baker University, she was encouraged by her professor to pursue her love of dog training.

She began work for the Lawrence Humane Society and listened to all the reasons people were giving up their pets. She decided there was a true need to help people train their dogs. She started working as a veterinary technician and training obedience classes.

Joan opened her own full time training and boarding school in 1986, devoting her skills to educating the public and to solving the bad behaviors causing so many pets to be given away.

Joan began competing in agility in 1993. She is nationally known for the wide variety of breeds and number of dogs that she handles. With over 250 agility titles on dogs ranging from the 8 inch class to the 30 inch class, from the herding, sporting, terrier, nonsporting, toy and hound groups, she has had the experience to work with all breeds and sizes of dogs in the sport.

Joan is also an agility judge for the AKC. She has competed in the National Dog Agility Championships in USDAA annually since 1994, making it to the finals in 16" and 20" divisions.

She has also competed in every AKC Agility Championship, finishing in the top ten of the 20" and 24" divisions over the years.

She was the first to finish a MACH in the state of Kansas with her German Shepherd, Freya.

In 2001, Joan had the #2 ranked German Shepherd Dog, the #6 ranked Sheltie, the #2 ranked Beagle, and the #1(and only) ranked Norfolk Terrier by the American Kennel Club.

Joan was a silver medallist at the 2001 Agility World Championship as a member of the USA/AKC team in Portugal with her Sheltie, Dustin. As a member of the 2003 USA/AKC team in France, Joan and Dustin turned in two clean rounds for their team bringing in the second fastest combined clean rounds in the world.

They also won 1st place in the 4th Round of Competitions at the AKC Agility National Championships in Denver in 2001 out of approximately 90 of the top 16" dogs in the country.

She was a finalist in the 2002 USDAA Grand Prix and Steeplechase finals and placed 2nd in the 16" division in the Steeplechase Championships.

In 2003, she placed third overall at the Agility World Team Invitational and second at the finals of the Purina Incredible Dog Challenge in the small dog division."

Jamiya

posted 11-25-2003 09:34 AM         

Also, Nala does seem to be responding a bit better with some of the work I did with her yesterday. You all are right in that I have been handling her wrong. I need to find a way to make her WANT to pay attention to me. I don't think corrections are going to go a long way with this dog. I don't have it all worked out in my head yet, but I guess every time I ask her to do something or interact with her, it has to be a Really Good Thing for her - meaning treats, toys, or a game.

Finding a lead she could not chew off is working better. I still feel like an ogre for keeping her tied up and having her favorite toys taken away. But I feel a little better about it knowing that when she settles down to chew a bone, I can praise her and invite her to play, let her off the line and play with her, let her play on her own, and then put her back on the line when I need to go do something. I guess I just need to be extra careful that she doesn't have an opportunity to chase the cats while she is off the line.

And I still don't know what to do with her when she starts nipping at me. I know it is a demand for attention. I have been told many things: to ignore it totally (ouch!), to give her a timeout, to correct her, or to give her the attention but make it time spent running through commands so that she decides she doesn't want that kind of attention anymore. I'm not sure which one to try first. Sometimes she does the nipping when we are playing - I think she is just excited and playing with me like she would with a dog. Not sure if I should try to calm her down, end the play session entirely, or just end my involvement with the play session.

I also need to anticipate more. I know she is going to go nuts when I walk into the kitchen, so take her with me on the line. I don't know what to do with her during dinner now. Maybe bring her with me and encourage her to lie down? Maybe give her a greenie or other special chew during that time. We have done that sometimes anyway, but always left her chewing it in the next room over. She goes sort of nuts in the kitchen when there is food on the table so most of the meal is spent telling her to not table surf.

And when she is in the kitchen while I am working and decides to counter surf - just tell her NO and use the line to pull her down? That's it - or make her then sit for a little while?

And I really don't know what I am ever going to be able to do to make her not chase the cats. Even when she is sitting on a loose lead, her whole body is focused on the cat and she is only sitting still because she knows the line will not let her get to the cat. She won't look at me, and she doesn't listen. How is that going to help her when the line comes off?

I think I need a trainer to come live with me for a week.