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Author Topic:   I'm so upset
Jamiya
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Posts: 1392
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Registered: Sep 2003

posted 11-20-2003 04:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jamiya     Edit/Delete Message
Hey guys. I'm so frustrated and upset. I have been losing my temper a lot these last few days.

Nala is driving me nuts with the nipping at me. She goes insane and jumps at me and nips me and it's hard to catch her and make her sit down and get back under control. It's probably my fault for not having the time to continue her training.

She also will not leave the cats alone. The whole afternoon is a constant struggle with them trying to get to a safe place and her chasing them, and me trying to make her stop, and the cats knocking stuff over trying to get away.

My husband, in all seriousness today, told me that he knows Nala is not what i was looking for in a dog, and so it is okay if I want to get a different dog. Suspecting he didn't mean a second dog, I asked him to clarify and sure enough, he was giving me permission to find her a new home and pick a new dog.

I haven't stopped crying since. He is right, loathe as I am to admit it. She is not at all what I was looking for in a dog. I did careful research and honestly evaluated our situation....and then I threw it all out the window at the shelter. I should not have picked out a puppy without my husband being with me to help me not get confused. I should not have picked out a puppy at all, because it is too hard to tell what they will be like grown up. I intended to get an adult dog to begin with, but HE said we should get a puppy.

But I love Nala. It tears my heart apart to think of her in a new home, wondering where we are and why she is not with us. Then again, knowing her maybe she would not notice as long as they were nice. Maybe she would even like it better. I don't know.

But I would feel like I was abandoning her. I don't think I could do it any more than I could have put my kids in daycare when they were small, no matter how difficult it was for me to be home with them for all those years.

On the third hand, I was totally miserable for all those years, and I really don't want to do that again. But on the fourth hand, Nala will calm down. Probably. And I need to work with her more. And I haven't tried a remote training collar yet.

As you can see, I am confused. I wish I had done it right to begin with. My husband likes her (except when he is mad at her). He thinks she is fine. My daughter would rather a smaller, lap dog. My son seems pretty indifferent. I love her, and I don't want to abandon her, although of course I would find her a very good home to go to or I wouldn't let her go.

What do I do? She's my baby. Is it better for her to stay, or to go? Is it better for me to keep her, or let her go?

Do you think a second dog would help, or make it worse? Would another dog give her an outlet and lessen the load on me? Or would it just be double the trouble? Not a puppy - an adult, preferably with obedience training.


Jamiya

[This message has been edited by Jamiya (edited 11-20-2003).]

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NewLabOwnr
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From:New York, USA
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posted 11-20-2003 04:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for NewLabOwnr     Edit/Delete Message
Well Jamiya I think I can sympathise with you. This weekend I really wanted to give Max back. I asked my husband why we didn't get a golden retriever that was calm and only wanted to please their owner. The reason for this breakdown was exactly for the reason you described. I had gone on a walk with Max and he threw a fit jumping all over me and barking at me. He keeps doing this despite my attempt at EVERYTHING to stop it. The only thing I honestly haven't tried is keeping him on the leash all the time and I just don't want to do that. I love taking our walks in the woods and letting him run free, he has so much fun. But then everyday when we go on our walks he has his hissy fits and jumps all over me. I honestly have special walk sneakers, pants, shirts, and a coat just because he jumps on me and tears everything and gets them dirty.

But despite that I know he loves me dearly and I think he does the jumping thing because he thinks he is my playmate, he jumps at me like he does the other dogs he plays with. Even though, in all the situations we are in I practice nothing in life is free so I can show him who is boss. But with no kids yet he's my baby, I can't stay mad at him for long. He is my constant companion, always follows me around and greats me SOOO excitedly when I come home. I love that I FINALLY convinced my husband to let him on the couch in the family room so everynight Max and I can cuddle on the couch. I love that time a day!

But I digress, I think that no matter what type of dog you get you might have the problem with the cats. I might be wrong here I guess. Also, if you get another dog make sure you are positive Nala and that dog would get along or else you'll double your trouble. Most dogs that Max comes in contact with are over 2 years and they want nothing to do with Max. He has too much energy for him and they just bark at him. Only the 1 year old next door will actually play with him enough to get his energy out.

I don't think we can decide for you as I'm sure you know. But I can say this...You don't want to be miserable in your life, it's too short. As long as you find Nala a good home you are not doing her any harm. Take a couple days and really think about the situation you are in. Do you really think a different dog will be any better? Will another dog make things easier or harder?

Good luck in whatever you decide I feel sad that you are in this situation and commend you for being honest with us.


Smiles...

[This message has been edited by NewLabOwnr (edited 11-20-2003).]

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neek
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From:Australia
Registered: Oct 2003

posted 11-20-2003 05:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for neek     Edit/Delete Message
There! Nasty message is gone, Sorry.

[This message has been edited by neek (edited 11-21-2003).]

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Jamiya
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posted 11-20-2003 05:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jamiya     Edit/Delete Message
I'm not sure you understand. I get up with this dog at 5:30am so she can spend two hours outside her crate before we go to work. It is just her and I for that time.

I have taken her to obedience class, and frankly I do better with her on my own. There's only so much you can do in an hour class, and an untrained dog is so distracted they don't learn much. The real work takes place at home.

She knows sit, stay, down. She should know off, leave it, no bite since she hears them all the time.

I have done EVERYTHING that anyone has suggested and nothing has curbed her "normal puppy behavior" of nipping. She is about 6 months old and you would have to see what she does to equate it to "normal puppy behavior." I can't lie down on the couch because she will bite my face. EVERY time she does it, she gets a firm NO BITE, she gets put in a sit or a down. And then she does it again.

I am with her all afternoon and all evening. I walk with her, play with her, sit out back with her. She doesn't cuddle - she bites.

So don't try to tell me I have not spent enough time with this dog or I have not tried to train her. I know plenty of people who have done a lot less with their dogs and they behave much better. No, I have not had time to proof her on her stays and I have not taught her heel because frankly I don't really care if she ever heels. She does know "slow" which I use on walks to stop her from pulling.

She is a very stubborn dog. She does not care about pleasing us. She works for food. She is extremely active. She rips clothes and bites hands, arms, faces, ears, chins, noses, calves, knees - you name it, she has bitten it. She does it to get attention, the same as going on the furniture if I walk out of the room.

I am a captive in the family room, where she is confined. I do everything in the family room. If I tether her to me, she bites at the leash or chews on anything she can reach, no matter how short the tether. There are many things I have not been able to do with my kids since we got her. I can't get to a store or even get my car tuned up because I won't crate her again after I get home from work and she can't be left alone.

So please, don't try to make me out as not having time for her. And don't give me this "you shouldn't get a second dog if you can't handle one." She is NOT a typical dog. I have had dogs before and my sister has three dogs and she has NEVER seen a dog behave like this before.

Nala is a very good dog, when she is behaving. And when she is not, she is a holy terror. There is no middle ground.


Jamiya

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susan_cude@hotmail.com
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From:Santa Maria, Ca.
Registered: Nov 2003

posted 11-20-2003 06:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for susan_cude@hotmail.com     Edit/Delete Message
Oh Jamiya, I'm sitting here, with my mind going a hundred miles an hour, trying to think of what to say to you.....It is "so clear" that nala is wearing you out! I know how hard it must be for you to even think of giving nala up.

But honey, if you know for sure that you can give nala a good home away from you, please don't feel guilty about it. As hard as that may (will) be. It is so obvious that you love that dog, and only want what is best for it. (and for your family) I'm so sorry that you are having such a hard time of it. "Senario" if you give Nala to a good home, will you be able to visit? that might make it a bit easier.

I will be praying for your situation, and I just know that you will make the right decision for Nala and your family...Good Luck! Please keep in touch, so I'll know how yu are...... Susan

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tuttifrutti
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From:Dallas, Texas
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posted 11-20-2003 06:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tuttifrutti     Edit/Delete Message
When ranger gets really hyper, and does that whole biting thing, we just put him in teh backyard. He cannot come in till he is calmly sitting at the door. I think he is getting a little better about the nipping, with some of us, not the younger ones, they are too hyper, because he sees his sister every once in a while. I think it helps because he knows who is playmate and who is not! I hope you get it all worked out and can keep her!

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nern

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posted 11-20-2003 09:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for nern     Edit/Delete Message
{{{Jamiya}}} What a tough decision. If you trully feel that Nala is not the right dog for you and you think you can find her the right home...I don't think you should feel guilty.
One other consideration...
Do you think maybe getting a private trainer could help? Some trainers will actually come to your home to work with you and your dog. Good luck with what ever you decide.

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GoodboysBaddogs
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From:Los Angeles, Ca.
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posted 11-21-2003 12:04 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for GoodboysBaddogs     Edit/Delete Message
JAMIYA:

I don't think getting another dog is going to be a better way, seriously. Your time & patience seem at the edge already w/ just Nala. What kinda dog is she? How old? I mean, it seems that Nala knows (not even thinks/no 2nd guessing) she can get away w/ her bad behavior. There needs to be some strict disciplining done. Let her know who's the alpha, seriously. Stop favoring your heart & emotions towards her when it's time for some serious disciplining. Leash her when you go for walks, all the way through, untill she knows how you want her to behave. It's sounds cruel, but she needs to understand where she's stands as a family member. Dogs need to have a role in the family, especially one as hyper-active as she sounds. She needs to understand when & how much is too much. Don't even put up w/ her biting thing. Don't think she does'nt know what she's doing, she does, you 'll just have to let her know what's not excepted. A strong/firm hand is despiratly needed. You probably would'nt dare, but a good wack at her mouth everytime she bites & does her irritating ways w/ you guys can help get your words felt, other than in-one-ear-&-right-out-the-other with words just being ignored, because she knows she can.
Let me know what you think of what i've suggested, so i can possibly finalize my opinion. I mean, looking for a good "other" family/home can take up the same quality time that you could be spending w/ her understanding her place in the fam... I feel yah, it's definatly a hard thing your going through.

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neek
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From:Australia
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posted 11-21-2003 02:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for neek     Edit/Delete Message
I didn't mean to upset you and I didn't mean it to sound the way it did. I know you spend time with her, and I'm sorry, and I didn't realise you had already started training with this dog. I won't post anything else on this topic. Just disregard what I said, Sorry.

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neek
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posted 11-21-2003 03:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for neek     Edit/Delete Message
Don't worry, I just disregarded it!

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Jamiya
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posted 11-21-2003 04:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jamiya     Edit/Delete Message
She is about 6 months old, and something like a border collie mixed with something stubborn. Beagle or terrier maybe, possibly some lab, although she has to have something smaller in her.

She IS on a leash on our walks. She actually behaves pretty well on walks, as long as she has the gentle leader on.

She can't wear a drag line at home because she will chew it off in 5 seconds flat. I have yet to find anything safe that she can use as a drag line. Therefore, I have no way to catch her as she takes off after the cats. I always go to her, grab her collar, tell her NO, put her in a sit or down, but she can't listen when there is a cat in sight. She can't even hear me.

I have used a squirt bottle to get her attention, but unless I stand next to the cat with the bottle, she goes right back to what she was doing when I leave.

We have tried time-outs. My husband very consistently puts her in her car crate every time she goes on the furniture for attention when we are in the next room over, cooking. It doesn't help.

I read once that when you are doing something with a dog repeatedly and the behavior is not changing, then you need to try something else because it never will.

We are running out of things to try. A private trainer? I *know* how to train a dog! I have sought more advice and techniques than imaginable. A trainer is going to tell me exactly what I already know and it is NOT going to help.

I *am* firm with her. I *do* discipline her consistently. She DOES NOT CARE unless food is involved and there is no cat in sight.

She has calmed down in the mornings. I can usually work on the computer or watch TV and she is pretty good, except when a cat walks through. That's a big change.

I will keep working with her. She does a 3-minute sit-stay with distractions at 6-feet. We'll go from there. Maybe if I can get a reliable down-stay on her, I can use it to get her to ignore the cats. Maybe I can try rescue remedy or something that might calm her down during her wild hours. In a few months she will be old enough to try agility.

I will look into a remote training collar again. I really think it is the only answer. It will teach her that HER actions are what turns the correction on and off. As far as she will know, it has nothing to do with me or the collar. She needs an internal reason to obey.

I'm not so sure a second dog would be worse. I might step up my plans to foster Goldens and see how it works out. The right dog could very well provide entertainment and exercise for her - no matter what I do, I can't play with her like another dog would, and I can't wear her out like another dog would.

An analogy. I have 2 children. The first was a living nightmare as an infant. You might say "babies are a handful" but just as with dogs, they come in all different types. My son NEVER slept. He nursed at LEAST every hour for the first year and more. He had to be touching me all the time. I had to carry him everywhere and he was a very large kid. I had to hold him on my lap while I ate every meal. He cried constantly. He woke up 8-10 times EVERY night for the first 14 months. He could not be left with a sitter. I spent every waking moment playing with him and trying to stimulate his mind, because to me his crying during the day indicated boredom and entertaining him was the only way to make it stop.

At 12 months I got pregnant again (on purpose). We had a beautiful baby girl when our son was 21 months old. That first year was hard, but not much worse than it was alone with my son. When our daughter turned a year old, we put them together in the same bedroom, and from the very first night, BOTH children slept through the night (for the first time ever) and have ever since. I no longer had to spend all my time stacking cups and driving plastic cars - they did that together. Sure, sometimes they fought which would never happen with just one kid, but for the most part the two of them together made my life a whole lot easier. It took the focus off me and let them learn how to do things without me.

So I don't know if that works for dogs as well. Probably depends on the two dogs. But right now I have an "only child" who is used to either me or my husband being with her all the time. Unless she is in her crate, she wants our attention. A moving cat makes her whole body react and I'm not sure how much control she has over it. it will take a LOT of conditioning to counter it, and no one can tell me it is because I don't know how to train her properly.


Jamiya

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tuttifrutti
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From:Dallas, Texas
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posted 11-21-2003 05:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for tuttifrutti     Edit/Delete Message
My britany is a companion dog, and so he always wants to be with one of us in teh house, outside, wherever we are. We have found that it is a bit easier when his sister comes over. All we do is put them in the backyard, make sure they have food and water, then let them run off and play off all of their energy. It works really well and they are always calm and tired and obedient (well, Ranger is, Snickers is not trained very well yet!) after the other leaves. Another dog may help!

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Jamiya
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posted 11-21-2003 06:27 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jamiya     Edit/Delete Message
There are a couple of very nice sounding dogs in Golden rescue right now. They have not been cat tested, so they are going to test them this weekend. I don't know if my husband will freak out or not. And it's not really a good time since we are going to be gone for almost 2 weeks over Christmas, but I will make sure the foster family can take the dog back over that time, or I won't do it. I still may not. The dogs must be cat tested, and they must be tested with Nala. I am NOT going to make another mistake.

And I WILL make Nala a good dog. I am commited to that again. Watch for another thread asking for more specific advice with emerging issues.


Jamiya

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tuttifrutti
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From:Dallas, Texas
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posted 11-21-2003 06:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for tuttifrutti     Edit/Delete Message
Yea for you! I hope one of teh goldens works out, they are great dogs! One of our neighbors has one, a few days older than ranger, and he is so sweet! He loves everyone, although he is a bit of a chicken! He and Ranger LOVE each other!

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Jamiya
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posted 11-21-2003 06:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jamiya     Edit/Delete Message
A Golden was what I was originally going to get. We were approved by the rescue people the same day I picked Nala out at the shelter. I'm not sure where my brain was that day.

My original wish list for a dog was one that was active outside and calm inside, easy to train (smart and with a strong desire to please), and big. I was also leaning toward an adult dog with obedience training and housetraining already done.

My husband wanted a dog that was big and active - to go hiking, biking, camping, etc. We both wanted a dog that doesn't bark excessively. My daughter wanted a dog that could fetch. My son just wanted a dog.

I scored on active and no barking, but the rest of it didn't work out.

Here are the descriptions of the two Goldens I am inquiring after:

"Forrest came to us as an owner surrender. He comes from a family on "over-load"; young children, young mother , and a husband serving in Iraq. Forrest spent much of his time out doors with not a lot of attention. When Forrest first arrived, we felt that he might not be the sharpest crayon in the box. We quickly learned that this was not the case. Forrest is very bright, but like many young, smart, Goldens who don't get enough guidance; Forrest was prone to "getting into things". He is a sweet, gentle dog who loves attention, and has surprisingly nice manners, and a very soft mouth. He has adjusted quite nicely to his foster home, and has not counter or trash surfed, nor chewed anything that he shouldn't. Forrest is a bit shy in new situations, but is always happy and with a little coaxing, will do most anything asked of him. Forrest is crate trained, and we are working to make certain that he is house-broken.

Forrest underwent extensive surgery after ingesting a rope toy. In true Golden fashion he has bounced back nicely, but is still a bit thin. We're working on fattening him up. Forest is very active outdoors with his foster sisters and brother, but quite calm in the house. He is a big boy, and will probably easily be 75-85 lbs. when he reaches a healthy weight. He is also a very quiet dog, he rarely barks, and when he asks to go out he sounds more like a whale than a Golden, it has his foster Mom quite amused. Forrest is a genuinely nice dog, and will be an wonderful addition to an active, caring family."

and...

"Jade came to us from a shelter. Jade is microchipped; origin is a shelter in New Mexico. They were unable to provide any information as to who Jade's owners might be. Jade is a well built medium sized boy, with nice conformation, and a lovely, dark blonde, wavy coat. He gets along well with other dogs, rides well in the car, is quite mild in nature, and appears to have spent time as an indoor dog. He is not the least bit distressed by normal household activity or noises and seems quite well adjusted. Jade gets along well with the teenagers in his foster home. He is active without being hyper, and knows basic obedience."


I have not heard back on Forrest. Jade's foster mom said she is testing him on cats this weekend.


Jamiya

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tuttifrutti
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From:Dallas, Texas
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posted 11-21-2003 07:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for tuttifrutti     Edit/Delete Message
I think they both sound great! I hope that at least one of them gets along with the cats! Who knows, it may even help Nala if they kind've become her "role model", and if they don't chase the cats, she may not either!

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Jamiya
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posted 11-21-2003 08:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jamiya     Edit/Delete Message
You never know. I really think some of the chasing is that she wants them to play with her. Sometimes she just plain chases. But sometimes she walks up to them calmly. One won't let her, but the other will.

I start crooning EASY, EEAAAASY and Nala looks at me. She sniffs the cat. The cat starts to get jumpy and make a growly noise. The more noises the cat makes or if she starts hissing and swatting, the more agitated Nala gets until she is pawing at her and biting her tail and ears and whatever else she can reach. It goes downhill from there.

When the cats sit on the other side of the gate, Nala stares at them and tries to stick her paw through and eventually starts to whine and bark at them.

Nala NEVER whines otherwise. I really think she wants them to play with her and does not understand why they won't.


Jamiya

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honeybear
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posted 11-21-2003 09:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for honeybear     Edit/Delete Message
Jimiya - I feel for you and your frustration reading your posts over last few months. It does sound like it has been a very difficult situaton for you. I know you have tried everything out there with Nayla and spent a LOT of time training with her. I truly believe you could probably now train most peoples dogs with what you have learned and are trying to teach Nayla. But she is one of the few dogs that is resisting every thing you do and it is not working. YOu state you didnt want to go a personal trainer route because you basicly know what they do. I agree if you would pick a trainer that teaches what you already know and are doing. But I think you are wrong to think all trainers in the same mold. I think you have exhausted your current methods of training. I think she needs a personal trainer that specializes in these problems and takes a much more aggressive approach. I had trouble with Jake and someone recommended a personal trainer to me. His problem was walking on leash.(Jake went thru 2 4 week classes with little change with a regular school) and he was (is) a very stubborn dog. She came over and showed me how to use the prong collar for him, well she is a trainer that I said I would never use because of her methods of training. Well, if I had a dog like Nayla - I would give it a try. A friend used her and swore by her so I called her. When she came in Jake jumped on her and she bopped him good on the nose - oh boy he hated that. I only used her that one time because the prong collar worked for me after that - and she told me any time Jake jumped like that to bop him good on the nose.

And you say she chews thru things she is tied with, how about a chain? dont know if that would work or not
So all I am saying before you make any decisions please try a personal trainer that uses a different style of training.

And please check out this link - It was in my Sept issue of my Best Friends Animal sanctuary magazine. Go to the article "The imperfect match" what to do when an animal upi adopted is not working out
http://www.bestfriends.org/news/magazines/BFMSep03.pdf

Honeybear

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puttin510
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posted 11-21-2003 10:27 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for puttin510     Edit/Delete Message
Jamyia, You know your guy is still a baby. My Rufus is possibly border collie mix. When you say he nips you, are they fast little nips or does he mouth you face? My dog will do this to my husband as a form of playing. Border collies do the nipping to move sheep too.(just thought I would throw that in). I don't allow it. He will chew on my husbands nose and all. Honestly it takes about 2 years before they can start acting more responsibly. My dog sees me as the big boss and trys his best to please me. But once my hubby comes home he(they both) act like nuts. I think your dog needs you to be even more firm with him than you have been. Not mean but very serious. On the other hand, if you seriuosly think you can't do it, then go ahead and rehome him. It will be for the better of the dog. With my Rufus he was annoying at first too. He was 1 year old when we got him.

------------------

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Jamiya
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posted 11-21-2003 10:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jamiya     Edit/Delete Message
She follows me around and bites the back of my legs. When I am sitting down, she bites my arms or fingers. If you let her, she will take your whole forearm in her mouth like an attack dog (I don't let her, of course). If you lie down on the couch, she jumps up and bites your nose. If you try to cuddle her close, she bites your chin or ears. My daughter has long hair, and Nala jumps up and bites her hair. Bathrobes and skirts and loose shorts are considered chin-up bars. When she totally loses it, she hurls herself as high as she can and bites at arms, legs, faces - whatever she can reach - and growls and prevents you from going anywhere.

Yes, it is herding behavior. Maybe I can find a herding dog trainer.


Jamiya

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fleafly
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From:sheridan, wy
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posted 11-21-2003 10:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for fleafly     Edit/Delete Message
My mom has a dog who was a holy terror as a puppy. He chewed everything, didn't listen to anything and was always doing the opposite of what he was supposed to. Now that he is older he is a very good dog. He just had to grow up to settle him down. He started getting better after he was a year old, now he is 4.

I don't know if this is happening or not, but maybe Nala is getting negative attention when she acts up. You might be inadvertantly giving her attention when she acts up. She might not be able to distinguish this from positive attention. I give my dogs time out in their kennels when they are acting up or chasing the cats. It seems to help a lot. I let them come out when they calm down. Like I said I don't know if this is what is happening or not, just an idea.

Just something to think about: If you are working so hard with Nala and she is still bad, do you think another family would be happy with her? Another family will probably not do half of what you are doing with her. If she keeps being bad the new family wont be happy and wont keep her.

I have heard of doggie training camps where you actually send the dog somewhere to be trained. Something like this might help.

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honeybear
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posted 11-21-2003 11:28 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for honeybear     Edit/Delete Message
Jimiya, how trying to bop or flick her nose (this is hard to explain) like I mentioned in my previous post. Their nose is a sensitive area so they dont like this so it doenst take much, so if she tries to jump or bite you , give a little bop just enough so it hurts a little. Just a thought

Honeybear

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honeybear
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posted 11-21-2003 11:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for honeybear     Edit/Delete Message
forgot - and the bop on the nose is with a firm loud NO

Honeybear

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NewLabOwnr
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Posts: 169
From:New York, USA
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 11-21-2003 12:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for NewLabOwnr     Edit/Delete Message
For those of you who haven't been on these forums too long I have to backup Jamiya that she really has put a whole heck of a lot of time, patience and dedication into this dog. If I had cats, kids and worked full-time I think I would be in the same boat as her. However I dont so I have a lot more time and patience to work with my Max. For those who might be thinking Nala (and Max for that matter) just need more exercise, I really want to ask you how much exercise is enough? I am amazed when I take my 3 sometimes 4 walks a day of all the barks I hear going by houses. I have now figured out that about every 3rd or 4th house on my street has a dog. I only know this because I see them in the backyards or hear them barking. I only see 2 other people on my whole street ever walk their dog, with my guess of about 20 - 25 houses with dogs. I know Jamiya exercises her dog as much as I do Max. If this isn't enough exercise then I can't imagine how crazy those other dogs can be. For Jamiya, I found that instead of making a couple real long walks, more short walks seems to work. I'm not sure how you do it now, but I wake up at 6 give Max a little walk come home, train, play and eat. Then in the afternoon my husband or I am home giving him a slightly longer walk and some play time. When whoever gets home first comes home its another short walk. Then right after dinner before we settle down for the evening we are out again for another longer walk. Like I said though I don't have kids so this may not be feasible for you.

I swear Max like Nala does not know how to be by himself. I can't put Max out on a tie-out because he just sits at the back door and barks. I don't "let him out" to go to the bathroom, I stand outside with a leash in the snow, rain, wind, freezing weather and let him go to the bathroom. In fact I don't let him out at all, if he goes out my husband and I are with him. I can't take a shower without Max being with me. If I close the door he sits and scratches at the door and wakes my husband. I really think it's because they got so much attention when they were younger that now they just don't know what they should do when they aren't sleeping or being on a walk.

I have gone back to the basics to teach Max what NO! really means. First day of training class the trainer said NO! is like a bark that the mother would use and a pull on the collar is like a nip on neck that also the mother would use. I think you are like me and most others where you do not want to use much force, but I'm agreeing with honeybear hear where it sounds like more force is what Nala needs. I know my husband is more forceful with Max and he certainly listens better to him. My new theory, or maybe it's not new but a rerun, is to keep Max on a 50ft rope at all times. I was just out cleaning up the yard and he, like always jumped up to nip at my gloves. Now at least I have control of the situation and could grab the rope yank on it say no and give him a little tap on the nose. What about doing that with Nala inside, as honeybear said, with a chain?

Oh well, I guess I'm just blabbing, I just feel for you, but also want to give you the encouragement and confidence to keep going with Nala. I fear, like fleafly that another home won't be willing to give Nala as much dedication as you have been giving and might not end up in a good situation.

I'll say a little prayer that you with find strength to continue and that Nala will soon calm down.

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honeybear
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From:
Registered: May 2003

posted 11-21-2003 02:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for honeybear     Edit/Delete Message
Newlabowner, well said, I think a lot of it is the tone of voice that is used. Since most women cant get that boistrous NO like a man can - it makes it more difficult on us to train and have them take us seriously. and a change of direction in the type of training is needed. She has tried the thumping on the nose (read the Phsyco post). I think it is wonderful to hear all of the effort you guys put in training.
When you talk about how very few people walk their dogs - and you do, it is because you love your pup and consider him a member of the family like they should be. It breaks my heart to see it otherwise. I had a meeting at someones house the other night and they had a great pyrenese chained in their front yard. And they are 150# of fur and are meant for cold weather - we live where it is over 100 every day in the summer so why would someone in their right mind get one of these!

As for Max being close to you - LOL get use to it! Jake our lab is the same way and he is 6 1/2years old. we are still in shock when he goes out the dog door and spends 10 minutes outside by himself. If I am in another room and suddenly realizes I am gone - he goes into panic looking for me. Just the other day my husband was out front doing some chores and Jake was with him, well he came in and Jake stayed outside for 20 minutes exploring, but hen when he relaized he was alone he came running to the front door. my husband was shocked because this is a big deal for us when this happens.

Honeybear

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puggleowner
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Posts: 228
From:Grand Rapids, MI
Registered: Nov 2003

posted 11-21-2003 04:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for puggleowner     Edit/Delete Message
Jamiya- Oh my, how I can relate to your situation! As you know by my previous posts, I too am having many frustrations with Cameron- she can be so crazy and naughty, yet I still love her so much and the thought of her in another home with people that might not be as patient with her- that might just decide to tie her in the backyard because they can't deal with her- and having her wonder where we are- that thought just rips my heart out! Trust me, I completely understand, and have more than once contemplated giving Cameron away....but I honestly think it will get better. I've even noticed changes in Cameron over the last two weeks, and she is about 7 months old. I think maybe you should wait until she's a year or a year and 1/2, because you might be surprised at how she grows up. What I think about that always helps me through when I am at my wits end with Cameron is my parent's dog, Pacer. I remember Pacer as this wild, nipping thing (he is a Golden) who would do nothing but jump and bite at me when I came home to visit from college. Well, he is about 5 now, and is just awesome. He just sits around calmly, doesn't nip, doesn't pounce all over us when we are on the couch- all around everything you could ask for in a dog- but let me tell you, he was NOT this way 5 yrs ago as a puppy. I think it just takes time, some dogs longer than others, but in the end it is worth it. Also, try out the two dog situation- that might really help. And let me know how it works too because we are eventually considering the same thing for Cameron. Hope all works out!

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GoodboysBaddogs
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Posts: 409
From:Los Angeles, Ca.
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 11-22-2003 12:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for GoodboysBaddogs     Edit/Delete Message
Wow, only 6 months!? BC huh..? Well, for one i don't know too much about BC's. But, i do know that i see them in pretty much evry agility trial on t.v... And i do know that for the most part their highly intelligent dogs that need a good amount of exercise, especially that they have generations of herding/working behind them. Two, Nala's behavior is that of a adolescents. My American Bulldog used to do that a lot when he was a young pup too (biting faces/ears/arms/hands/legs/feet) it's just in their nature/genetics. He still does stuff like that, but only when we play & my actions let him know that it's okay to play like that. When it get's too rough for me, i let him know. Nala must understand this. I agree w/ that other person who said that getting another trainer that specializes or at least has a good amount of experiance in these types of behaviors could be a way to go. I know it could mean $$$, that's why i just say it's time to get physical! Straight to the point. You would'nt even have to yell as many times ... LOL! Genetics is something thats really hard to adjust. Especially when it's in your dog as strong as it sounds. Her natural instincts are living strong in her. I bet if you did(trained) some type of athletic work w/ her, she'll do a fine job. This would probably something easy for her to understand . But even that would take a lot of time & dedication.
I think that you have a good understanding of your Nala, & that she's most likly just trying to get your attention, and wants play-time like all the time. With anybody in her family (you guys, including the cats). If she's not getting the outlet (vigorous exercise) from you (humans), then she'll try to let loose w/ the cats. Of coarse the cats are'nt having it, but if you say that you see that it's a possibility that she's just needing that extra-strenuous type of romping, then i definatly see where the other dog plays it's role. This of coarse can work. But, it will only buy you "some" time. Don't expect to be Nala free, & only when your ready for her type of living. I'm not saying you are, i'm just saying.
Now, you'll have two dogs waiting and wanting your attention. You'll now have 2 dogs wanting to romp and play w/ you, and anyone in your family. This new dog (if everything works out fine & they both bond well) will be Nala's play-mate as far as "being dogs", but don't forget your the alpha, & they don't have an idenity in your family w/out you. They'll both still be needing a good amount of your time & will be expecting it. But as far as when you need to be dog-free and take care of other matters, you can rest assure that those two will be alright together, as long as they both know where each of them stand as a pack member. Dominant dog, and 2nd place dog. There's sooooo much that i would have to explain, but i'm gonna end this reply here by saying that yes i see & agree where your going w/ this 2nd dog. Just be prepaired for things not to be easy. It can be, or it can not be, but i think you know what your doing, and going about it in all the right steps.

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kyles101
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From:Perth, Western Australia
Registered: May 2003

posted 11-22-2003 04:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kyles101     Edit/Delete Message
it may be expensive but hire a private trainer. she may need drugs. when telling her off use a very deep firm but not too loud voice. otherwise they think youre playing.

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Nik
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Posts: 115
From:UK
Registered: Nov 2003

posted 11-22-2003 05:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Nik     Edit/Delete Message
I know everyone's already said "I feel for you" and all that but that's all really all I have to offer too, sorry.
Mine's doing exactly the same thing, he's just over 4 months now. Every single time I get on the sofa he jumps at me nipping and barking. He 'sits, leaves and downs' every time I ask him too exept for at this time. I ignore him doing it now for as long as possible as all the stern 'no's' in the world don't stop him.
I thought once he was allowed out for walks I'd take him around the time he started being a pest... he just waits and restarts when we get home.

It sounds like you've decided to keep Nala so I wish you all the luck with her

You've given some excellent advice and support to everyone on this forum. We all know how hard you've tried and how hard it is to sucseed so should Nala ever goto a new home you'll know she had a great one with you.
Keep at it

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Jas

Moderator

Posts: 536
From:
Registered: May 2003

posted 11-22-2003 06:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jas     Edit/Delete Message
Hi Jamiya,

Sorry for the difficult time you're having with your pup. Sometimes I think fate brings us challenges for a reason. And it sounds like you've had your share!

I don't have a lotzs to add but perhaps a behaviorist/trainer would be the right route to go, rather than just a trainer.

I think at this point I would also consider a second dog, if anything, to help keep her occupied.

I would also consider consulting with a holistic/homeopathic vet about using calming remedies like bach flower. Rescue remedy is one I use (for both myself & dogs ) or even another blend might be more appropriate, sometimes different blends work differently for the individual dog.

Lastly I highly recommend looking into TTouch, visit www.lindatellingtonjones.com for some ideas about how TTouch works. An excerpt from the website:

quote:
Using a combination of specific touches, lifts, and movement exercises, TTouch helps to release tension and increase body awareness. This allows the animal to be handled without provoking typical fear responses. The animal can then more easily learn new and more appropriate behaviors.

and goes on
quote:
...Even the most difficult problems are often eliminated. You can also learn how to apply the Tellington TTouch to assist with recovery from illness or injury, or just enhance the quality of your animal's life.
The Tellington TTouch can help in cases of:
Excessive Barking & Chewing
Leash Pulling
Jumping Up
Aggressive Behavior
Extreme Fear & Shyness
Resistance to Grooming
Excitability & Nervousness
Car Sickness
Problems Associated With Aging

Maybe something from the website will stand out and work for you. I hope you find some solution/resolution with Nala soon.

Jas


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Jamiya
Member

Posts: 1392
From:
Registered: Sep 2003

posted 11-22-2003 07:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jamiya     Edit/Delete Message
Grrrr. I replied to this message but it doesn't seem to be showing up. Now what did I say?!

I was just reading about the flower essences and wanted to pursue it. I will find a holistic vet. Thanks for the website as well - I'll go look at it. I am reading a book about pet massage but I haven't had a chance to try it yet.

Nala was an angel today. I had her out during her "sleepy time" - the time she is usually in a crate during the week. She was so subdued everyone kept telling me what a wonderful dog she is. She was so sleepy, she even laid down in PetsMart between the rows of dogs up for adoption! Last time we were there, she was so hyper she chewed through a leash.

Apparently, I was out later on when she went nuts. My husband and daughter ran her through the pile of leaves they were making in the front yard, and when she went into total crazy dog mode, my husband took her in the backyard and let her chase him on his bike until she was worn out. She has basically been a lump ever since. She didn't even touch her dinner until about 10 minutes ago.

I almost made an appointment to go look at a foster Golden, but I have a LOT of questions about the logistics of two dogs. I'll start a new thread.

Thanks for all the advice, everyone!


Jamiya

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Jamiya
Member

Posts: 1392
From:
Registered: Sep 2003

posted 11-23-2003 06:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jamiya     Edit/Delete Message
Yay yay yay!! I found a trainer that specialized in herding breeds. She has a dog agility school and obedience, and does group classes and private lessons. Her website says they specialize in "behavior issues." She says Nala is still young enough to learn but we MUST get going on it - herding drive is only to be used on stock and not children, adults, or cats. Yay!!

I am going to meet with her this week. She's about 30-45 minutes away from me, but who cares! Nala travels well.

She also has a 3-week or a 5-week board and train program. Nala will be boarded anyway for about 2 weeks over the holidays when we go to my parents, and I am paying a bundle to send her to this "resort" place where she gets doggy daycare (interaction with other dogs) for half the day and 2 additional times with an individual person. If this trainer would take her for 3 weeks over that time and train her, I would do it!

I do realize that's not a cure-all but it would probably be a good start.


Jamiya

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