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Author Topic:   Sheltie & training Q's
Lucky
Member

Posts: 77
From:
Registered: Jun 2003

posted 10-17-2003 09:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lucky     Edit/Delete Message
Hello!

I have a couple of questions. The first is about training. I'm about to sign my 5 month old puppy up for training. I talked to the trainer and she uses the traditional choke chain method. The thing is - I don't want to choke my dog! It's not that I think it is cruel or anything, it's just that she is such a responsive and sensitive little thing that I'm afraid that the choke chain is too harsh of a training method for her. On the other hand, she's smart enough that I can't see treat training being totally effective. Do you know what I mean? Are there other options that are as effective as choking her? Will she forgive me if I do go with the choke chain method?

This is my second question and it is for any Sheltie owners out there. My dog is a Sheltie cross and she looks quite a lot like a Sheltie and I'm training to figure out if she'll get that long Sheltie coat. At five months she's starting to get quite a puffy collar but her fur is not very long. When do Sheltie puppies start looking like Shelties?

Thanks!

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goob
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Posts: 552
From:
Registered: Mar 2003

posted 10-18-2003 12:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for goob     Edit/Delete Message
I would talk to the trainer and let them know your concerns and feelings on this type of training tool for your pup. I would also be a bit suspicious of anyone advocating using a correction collar on a pup under 6-7 months, but that might be just me.

If she's as smart as you say, then you would be surprised at how quickly she may pick up on things taught in a postive reinforcement method. I'm sure there are others who can go more deeply into this type of training (I think Jas uses clicker training??), but just to give an exapmle of on type of positive reinforcement type training...

I use a lot of "marker training" with our dogs, especially our Dachshund, Annie. Marker training is like clicker training, but with a "marker word" instead of a clicker, I use "good!". I started by conditioning her to associate my marking (saying "good!") with a reward, in her case a ball or tug. Once she realized that my mark meant she was doing what I wanted, and was going to get rewarded, it's been easy-peesy to teach her new things and shape behaviors. I only carry a reward sometimes now, the rest of the time she works off of praise only.

I've been fiddling around with teaching her a "formal" retrieve, where they sit by your side until you cue them to go after the dumbell (we've been using a ball though), get it, bring it back, sit, and hold it until you take it from them, then let go when you grab it. We had been messing around with it a bit last year, but got sidetracked and just got started again in late june. When we started again, she would wait for me to cue her, then would run and get the ball, bring it back, stand over it and try to rip the fuzz off, then finally back off like she was ready for me to have it, then sometimes dive for it again as I reached for it. The thing was that she REALLY wanted me to throw it for her, she just knew she could fool around and I would still try to get it and throw it.

So, to start to shape her pathetic semi-retrieval, on the first session, I threw the ball once, then turned my back on her and stood, arms crossed, waiting. Sure enough, she brought the ball back, then settled in a few feet off, in de-fuzzing position, ready to play "the game". Still I ignored her. She realized that what she was doing wasn't working, grabbed the ball, and moved it a bit closer to me. I marked when she moved towards me, ball in mouth. We went through this several times, until she finally dropped the ball at my feet. I marked, then grabbed the ball and threw it. We did this whole inch-by-inch deal two more times before; I threw the ball, she went out, and brought it right back to my feet. This was in just 4 tosses! We did this a few times, and while she did try to test me once or twice more, I ignored her, and she quickly realized that she wasn't getting what she wanted unless the ball found its way to my feet.

The next session, which I didn't get around to until several weeks later, we first briefly went back over what we had done the time before, she remembered after only one toss, so we did a few of those... then went on to bigger things. I tossed the ball, and she brought it back to my feet, then looked at me expectantly. I ignored her again. She started getting impatient, and nudged my hand. I marked. She knew she was getting close to getting the toss, so got even more excited, grabbed the ball, and nudged my hand. I marked, grabbed the ball out of her mouth, and tossed it. Same thing next toss. By the end of that session, she was consistently bumping my hand with the ball after retrieving it. We've been busy working on other things, but hopefully I'll get her doing the whole retrieve within the next month or two. Even so, you can see the progress she made was amazing, from being a complete spaz, to bring the ball back almost to hand, in only two 1/2 hr to 1 hr sessions.

And this is from a dog, who before I started doing this type of training with her, was HORRIBLE to work with. She didn't care if I was ready to kill her (only joking, it never got quite *that* bad ), she had her own agenda. Now, I "rule" her agenda, and she knows that as long as she works well for me, I won't start fooling around with it. She LOVES her training sessions, and I can't see going back to correction based training with her after this.

I've taught her "sit", "stay", "down", "come", and we're cleaning up her "heel", as well as various other non-obedience competition commands, without a correction collar, and we often work without a collar or leash at all (to give you an idea of how often we do this, she does her commands better off-leash than on ).

I highly recommend you look into some of the positive based training methods, it sounds like they would fit both your and her needs well.

Here is one link on clicker training, I've read a few or the articles on there and liked them, it seems to have a lot of info. http://clickersolutions.com/

[This message has been edited by goob (edited 10-18-2003).]

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Maisey
Member

Posts: 1387
From:Portland, Oregon US
Registered: Sep 2003

posted 10-18-2003 09:08 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Maisey     Edit/Delete Message
LOL goob, "easy- peesy"???? Too funny.
Lucky I have an Aussie mix who is real sensitive and smart as heck, he has done really well with the "marker training". I didn't know that was what it was called...but it's what I have done. When I took him to agility, the trainer took Dooley a couple times by the collar to guide him through something, everytime Dooley would freak out, he was scared. It surprised me, I guess I don't usually grab him by the collar and didn't know he had an issue with it. The trainer worked through that little issue until Dooley was fairly confortable with being handled that way but found a way to work with him that he responded to better and was more comfortable with. I personally think a good trainer recognizes what works best with a dog and can adapt. If you aren't comfortable with using a choke chain..DON"T. There are too many options, find a trainer that uses methods you are comfortable with. You will be happier and so will your dog. Dooley will do anything for a verbal reward and a pet. He would play Chopin on the piano for a treat! Don't get caught up in what seems right or wrong...but rather what works and what you are comfortable with.

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nern

Moderator

Posts: 1591
From:NY, USA
Registered: Oct 2002

posted 10-18-2003 09:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for nern     Edit/Delete Message
I agree, I would look for another trainer if you are uncomfortable with using a choke chain. I can't speak for everyone but I personally prefer trainers that use positive reinforcement methods...such as clicker training. JMO.

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