posted 10-14-2003 10:49 AM         

Before everyone jumps down my throat, please read this article: http://www.spanieljournal.com/7mdeeley.html

Next, if anyone still wants to jump down my throat, please just save it. I love my dog. I know my dog. I just want information to be able to use this method safely.

The reasons behind my decision follow. First, my dog is not a soft dog. She is a hard dog that does not respond very well to corrections. She is a very smart dog, but a very stubborn dog.

I have been told to keep a leash on her and let her drag it. I have been told to use a prong collar. Keeping a leash on her does help and we have made some progress. However, she is also a voracious chewer and she has chewed through several leashes. I try to watch her when she is dragging a line and use chewing on the line as an opportunity to teach her to Leave It, but if I look away for even 30 seconds she has chewed through the line. Now, she is never unattended so I have already changed my life a LOT to accomplish this, but staring at her constantly just is not in the realm of possibility.

I tried using a tie out line as a drag line. This seemed promising, but it did not work. The line tends to coil, and it gets wrapped around her. If she takes off after the cats and I grab the line to give a correction, I could break a leg if it got wrapped around her. Even more disturbing, when I gave up and took it off, I discovered that the line had actually wrapped around her neck without me noticing (her fur hid it). Good thing I didn't yank on it when it was that way.

So, since nothing else is helping with the cats and I really think getting a nice strong POP when she starts to chase them would go a long way toward solving this problem, I decided I would try a prong collar. However, no matter how hard I ponder or wander through pet stores, I still can't come up with anything to use as a drag line that she won't chew through and yet will be safe.

Finally, I came back to the idea of the remote collar. I had thought of it before as a last resort, but the more I think about it, the more ideal it seems. Everyone says you should always train a dog on leash. But this dog knows how it works and she is an angel on leash when being run through her commands but turns into a devil as soon as the leash is off. Also, it really takes away from spontaneous learning times if I have to go get a leash. I have been training her off-leash in the house, using free moments to call out a command or two to her throughout the day. But, there is no good way to give a correction if she does not obey.

Therefore, after thinking it over and reading the article I posted above, I'd like to give the remote collar a try.

So if anyone is still reading, do you know of any books or videos or whatnot that will help me to use the collar effectively? I understand they have different levels of correction and duration of stimulation and I want to be very sure I am doing everything humanely and correctly.

posted 10-14-2003 01:29 PM         

also here is a web site to check out that offers the collars http://www.petsafe-warehouse.com/dogtrainingcollars/dogshockcollars.htm

posted 10-14-2003 05:32 PM         

I will see if I can find a trainer in the area who can work with me.

Besides the cats, there is one other thing that REALLY bothers me and needs to stop. Nala seems to think I am a play toy. She tries to get me to do things by lunging and snapping at me. I was afraid she was trying to bite me and being aggressive, but I don't think so. She doesn't bite hard, and earlier today when I ignored her she actually started doing the play growling noise she makes at her toys when she is really excited and then started barking at me.

I'm not sure how I ended up lower on the totem pole than my husband, who doesn't work with her at all on obedience, is more lenient than me, and does everything "wrong". Yet he has more success stopping her than I do.

When she gets totally out of control it is almost scary. She has ripped clothes and scratched me (with toenails and teeth). When someone is lying on the couch, she regards that as time to lunge at the person. The kids and I are usually the targets, more so than my husband.

I hate to give her any attention for this behavior - negative or otherwise - but it also cannot be ignored because it HURTS.

It seems we go one step forward and then two steps back.

However, if she is going nuts and I tell her "Let's go for a walk" then she sits and waits for me to get the leash. Therefore, I regard the lunging as an attempt to manipulate me. She also jumps up on me during walks if she wants me to stop or go a different way. (I don't give in to her, of course.)

I think she is possessed. She is either an angel or a devil.

I have been told some of this will go away with age. I certainly hope so!

posted 10-14-2003 08:24 PM         

Yes, she has a lot of personality. And she is very smart. I think she is a very smart dog like an aussie or border collie mixed with a very stubborn dog like a terrier or beagle. She doesn't know whether she wants to chase the cats or eat them. I am often reminded of the poem my mother used to recite to me - "there was a little girl who had a little curl right in the middle of her forehead; when she was good she was very very good; and when she was bad she was horrid."

My husband had her out at the park tonight and she was jumping around like a deranged bunny (as usual) and landed wrong and hurt her hind leg. He let her rest and was going to carry her home, but she started walking on her leg. He said it didn't look like she was walking correctly, but he felt all along it and it wasn't tender and it looked the same as the other leg, so he let her walk home on it. Now she is not putting weight on it. He thinks it stiffened up or something.

I called the emergency vet and they said to keep her quiet and as long as she can sleep okay it sounds like it can wait until the morning. If she is still favoring it in the morning I will take her to the regular vet.

Poor thing! She is being very good with the cats tonight, but that's not what I had in mind!!

posted 10-15-2003 02:13 PM         

The vet said the leg is most tender near her hock (ankle). There's possibly a small fracture but he wasn't sure - the specialist will be by tomorrow to read the films and see what she thinks. Otherwise it could be a compression fracture (which wouldn't show up on an x-ray) or simply a twisted ankle.

They gave me pain killers to give her, but I'm wondering if that is wise. He wants me to keep her from running for the next week or two (TWO?!) but if the meds dull the pain then she is going to overuse the foot, IMO. Perhaps I will give it to her late in the day so if it is sore it will relieve it and she can sleep better (although she slept fine last night).

She's at least putting it down on the ground now, so I think she'll be okay. I bet in a day or two she will be hopping around as usual.

posted 10-15-2003 03:25 PM         

She is limping around the house and even chasing the cats a little (I may have to put them downstairs for a while so she doesn't do it anymore). I think she'll be okay.

posted 10-15-2003 04:12 PM         

I don't have any collar recommentdations but have you tried Clicker training with her? Training using operant conditioning with clickers to manage behavior. Its all based on positive training & timing - response and reward. I have hounds which tend to be independent (stubborn) and didn't give this method enough credit. I signed up for a clicker class a skeptic and was surprised at how responsive my dogs are to the clicker.

One of my girls has a bad habit of running up to every dog she can at full speed - to play but since not every dog wants to play back I wanted to curb this habit. I'll see her spot another dog and then I call her name, when she turns to look at me (or shows signs of thinking before charging) I click with the clicker, and she, knowing a reward is coming will chose me (treats!!!) over the other dog. So it really can shape a would be negative situation into a positive result. Its much nicer and *easier to mark a behavior we want rather than punish a behavior we don't want. So you would reward your girl for NOT chasing the cats, or ignoring the cats, and even if she begins to chase and then stops. Because it is all positive there is no need to worry about aversive/old school methods which have in the past harmed many dogs both physically and mentally.

The great thing is its always positive and you can use it at any time, even with other training methods/devices. Can also be used with things like agility or formal obedience class. Its very easy to learn and while a clicker class is valuable its not really necessary IF you have read up and understand it.

posted 10-15-2003 04:58 PM         

The problem I see is that once she starts after the cats NOTHING distracts her. I do reward her the few times she behaves appropriately with them (this happens rarely and usually only when she is very tired). If I get up and walk over to where she is bothering them, she will Leave It and come with me to get a treat. But the cats are still terrorized because she still chased them before coming to me. And if I don't stand up and walk over to her, she doesn't obey. Also, once she comes back with me and gets her treat, then it's right back over to the cats.

posted 10-16-2003 04:26 PM         

One thing she will associate with the shock collar is that the presence of a human means pain. Pain = fear and fear of people does not make a dog trustworthy and stable. The problem is with a quick fix collar, it doesn't solve or change the problem, it suppresses it. Dogs will repeat a behavior that works and is rewarding - so if you are not around (no one to zap her) and she sees a cat she will chase it (and receives the reward). These type of collars are an easy "out" for those who don't want to spend the time training (not saying this is you) and misuse can also cause behavior problems later on. It may take longer to train in a positive manner but the relationship between you and your dog will strengthen this way as opposed to an untrusting relationship based on fear.

posted 10-17-2003 07:20 AM         

Anyway, I see your point and it makes sense. The thing about the collar, though, is that the dog DOES NOT KNOW that the correction comes from the human. In fact, I could hide around the corner and give her a correction for chasing, or for jumping on the furniture, and she would not associate it with a person being in the room.

The problem right now is that there are some behaviors she does only when we are not in the room (we generally don't leave her unattended, but I do step out every once in a while for a minute).

I do reward her profusely whenever she is appropiate with the cats. It is difficult because even when she is being EASY with them, the one will still hiss and swat and then she gets agitated and confused. I guess I just should not let her approach them at all at this stage of the game.

I can't make the cats stay out of her room unless I shut them in the basement. (It is a finished basement and their food and litter is down there.) But they like to be in the room with the people and I don't want them to think the dog has taken their place with us.

I am making some progress. If I can get her attention before she has totally gone after them, she sometimes breaks off. Sometimes. But as soon as she gets her treats, she is right back at them. This morning I put her on a lead at that point and started working on STAY so she was distracted from the kitty.

I have also noticed that I don't think it's as much a case of ignoring me when she is after them as I thought it was. I think the reason she doesn't Leave It or only does it when I go over to her is because she does not hear me when she is focused on them. When I can manage to get her attention, she will look my way and then usually obey and come to me.

I am not using a recall on her for this. I am telling her to Leave It. I will not use Come unless I have her on leash or am absolutely certain she will do it on her own. Should I be using Come instead of Leave It?

As far as being too young for the remote collar, I agree. But to use one correctly, the dog must be used to wearing it and having it taken on and off several times a day over a period of a couple weeks. It has to be so ordinary for them that when the collar is finally turned on, they do not associate it with wearing the collar. This means I could get one now and by the time she is 6 months old she would be used to it and ready to start training with it.

They also must not see you pushing the button or hear it click. They must think that the correction came as a natural result of what they were doing at the time, and therefore they learn to not do it. After that, you can use a very short, almost subliminal correction to get their attention or serve as a distraction if they show signs of doing that behavior, to reinforce the lesson.

The remote collar money went to the vet for Nala's foot injury, so I will need to wait anyway. We are making some progress and if we can do this without the collar, so much the better.

Thanks again for all your suggestions and comments.