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Author Topic:   Declawing... again!
Caitlyn
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Posts: 84
From:Hull, UK
Registered: Nov 2003

posted 01-10-2004 12:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Caitlyn     Edit/Delete Message
I would just like to point out to those of you that still think it is a good idea that here in the UK we think it is so traumatic and abusive to the animal that we don't allow it! It has been outlawed and I understand the same action has recently been taken in west california.

It is inhumane, very painful and worst of all completely needless! You can train your cat not to scratch as long as you provide an alternative place for them to do it.

Personally I think if you want to have your cat declawed you are a lazy and selfish owner and your cat will be better in the shelter than it will with you! If you loved your animal you would accept it has its faults just like you do!

So next time you poke yourself in the face with your own nail, or scratch yourself why not take yourself along to the doctors and ask them to remove the top most digit of your finger! Then you'll know just how your cats going to feel.

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Chessmind
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posted 01-10-2004 12:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Chessmind     Edit/Delete Message
Well said! You go Caitlyn!

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MaryNH
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Posts: 240
From:Campton, NH USA
Registered: Jan 2004

posted 01-10-2004 04:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MaryNH     Edit/Delete Message
Since most people get their cats declawed to protect their furniture - it they had a fire which would they save first? Their precious furniture they mutilated their cat to save....or their cat.

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Caitlyn
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From:Hull, UK
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posted 01-11-2004 12:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Caitlyn     Edit/Delete Message
Don't ask that question they'd probably choose the furniture grrrr

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Samsintentions
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From:Columbus, Tx ,USA
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posted 01-12-2004 06:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Samsintentions     Edit/Delete Message
You know, Tom, even though he was rescued as a wild starving kitty, never used the furniture once, carpet...now thats another story, and it took him one time to learn how to use the scratching post....so those of you who say,"oh he just won't learn" I taught a wild cat how to do it....Granted, he still hates me, but he learns.

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footsie
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From:Vancouver, WA USA
Registered: Jul 2003

posted 01-12-2004 11:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for footsie     Edit/Delete Message
Before you jump down my throat, I am not planning to get my cat declawed.

Does anyone have an idea of what the likelyhood of a cat developing problems from declawing?

I was discussing this with some people who had declawed cats and all claimed that they recovered from the operation with no problems.

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Chessmind
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From:CA
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posted 01-12-2004 01:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Chessmind     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
I was discussing this with some people who had declawed cats and all claimed that they recovered from the operation with no problems.

The declawed cats are the only ones who know for certain that they had 'no problems.' Unfortunately, they can not voice their opinions on this. I'm %100 certain that any cat given the opportunity would be so happy to have their paws intact again. Also, animals have no choice, but to deal with their pain. So, people that are not in touch with their pets don't know how they are feeling. Also, people often feel guilty for declawing their pets and therefore won't admit that their pets are having difficulty.

As far as actual facts are concerned on this subject. There has been extensive research done on human amputees and all of them have experienced pain at one time or another for the duration of their lives. Now, compound this problem with having 10 or more amputations on one person/cat and there is bound to be pain in at least one of these amputations on a regular basis.

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rogerntami
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posted 01-14-2004 11:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for rogerntami     Edit/Delete Message
All 3 of our cats are declawed, and they are happy as ever. No problems whatsoever. In fact, one of them is happier now than she was before because she had a strange claw that actually had 2 sticking out and she felt better after they were all removed. Naturally the back claws were left in tact. Humans must endure pain all the time. Braces aren't too comfortable, we have our appedix removed, and have other painful things done, but we survive. You can lose you fingernail and in time you won't even miss it. I will say that we had them declawed at an early age, so I'm sure that helps, plus we have had wonderful vets. It also hurts to "amputate" their reproductive organs...

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amcfoto
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From:Methuen, MA
Registered: Nov 2003

posted 01-14-2004 12:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for amcfoto     Edit/Delete Message
First of all...

I do NOT believe declawing is a good thing and my cats will NEVER have it done.

That being said...

To say... "Personally I think if you want to have your cat declawed you are a lazy and selfish owner and your cat will be better in the shelter than it will with you!" is quite harsh and I do not agree with that statement or with everyone jumping down other posters throats because they have made that decision in that past or are thinking about it now.

The decision to declaw or not is up to each pet owner and what they feel is best for THEIR pet. I would say that every decision should be well informed (being well educated about declawing is what persuaded me not to do it....not people getting all pissy about it on this board). If someone does decide to do it then they are NOT horrible selfish people that will rot in hell. And I also think that even pets who are declawed have some of the most loving caring owners I have ever seen and do not deserve to be told they are horrible!

No I don't agree with declawing and I would want to talk to people who are thinking about it IN A NICE WAY to inform them about the procedure and what exactly it entails - after that it's up to each individual person. But that's all I can do and I would never resort to saying some of the things I have seen on this board...

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fleafly
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From:sheridan, wy
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 01-14-2004 01:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for fleafly     Edit/Delete Message
Interestingly enough a lot of countries have decided that it is NOT up to each pet owner to decide and have made it illegal. I don't think it should be up to each person. It should be illegal in the US like it is in most other developed countries.

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amcfoto
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From:Methuen, MA
Registered: Nov 2003

posted 01-14-2004 01:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for amcfoto     Edit/Delete Message

Well regardless... it doesn't give people the right to say some of the things I have seen said...

And anyways, don't you think less people do it these days? I know more people with clawed cats than declawed.

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Caitlyn
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From:Hull, UK
Registered: Nov 2003

posted 01-14-2004 03:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Caitlyn     Edit/Delete Message
To be honest I feel that declawing is actually animal abuse and I believe that anyone who is abusing their animal should be taken out and shot!
The UK have banned declawing for a good reason, cats need their front claws, not only are they useful but they have a great deal to do with your animals mental well being as they use these claws to make communication marks. If your animal has a medical reason to have their claws removed ie they are causing the cat pain then that is acceptable surgery, as is removing a badly injury limb BUT declawing because you don't want scratched furniture is NOT the action of an animal lover and whilst I agree that not all pet owners are animal lovers I don't believe these people should be allowed a choice about whether to mutilate their animal for the sake of their couch!!! A cat is a living thing, it has a right to remain intact, its life is special and irreplaceable. Your furniture might be expensive but can be replaced with a visit to a large retailer. Surely the well being of a living thing is more important than if your coffee table has a few claw marks in it????
The reason think declawing is lazy is because with a bit of time and effort you can stop your cats scratching things you don't want them to anyway.

I reserve my right to maintain that anyone who willfully mutilates their animal is a bad owner from the off, should seriously think about their commitment to their animal and NOT OWN A PET!! Quite frankly I feel the whole practice is sick and those who advocate it are equally twisted.

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nern

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From:NY, USA
Registered: Oct 2002

posted 01-14-2004 03:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for nern     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
Does anyone have an idea of what the likelyhood of a cat developing problems from declawing?

Here is a link which contains various "declawing horror stories" which were contributed by various cat owners who have had problems: http://declaw.lisaviolet.com/declawstory.html

I found some more info. on incidence of complications from declawing on this site: http://maxshouse.com/Truth%20About%20Declawing.htm
Quoted from the above site -
"Complications
Declawing is not without complication. The rate of complication is relatively high compared with other so-called routine procedures. Complications of this amputation can be excruciating pain, damage to the radial nerve, hemorrhage, bone chips that prevent healing, painful regrowth of deformed claw inside of the paw which is not visible to the eye, and chronic back and joint pain as shoulder, leg and back muscles weaken.

Other complications include postoperative hemorrhage, either immediate or following bandage removal is a fairly frequent occurrence, paw ischemia, lameness due to wound infection or footpad laceration, exposure necrosis of the second phalanx, and abscess associated with retention of portions of the third phalanx. Abscess due to regrowth must be treated by surgical removal of the remnant of the third phalanx and wound debridement. During amputation of the distal phalanx, the bone may shatter and cause what is called a sequestrum, which serves as a focus for infection, causing continuous drainage from the toe. This necessitates a second anesthesia and surgery. Abnormal growth of severed nerve ends can also occur, causing long-term, painful sensations in the toes. Infection will occasionally occur when all precautions have been taken.

"Declawing is actually an amputation of the last joint of your cat's "toes". When you envision that, it becomes clear why declawing is not a humane act. It is a painful surgery, with a painful recovery period. And remember that during the time of recuperation from the surgery your cat would still have to use its feet to walk, jump, and scratch in its litter box regardless of the pain it is experiencing."
Christianne Schelling, DVM

"General anesthesia is used for this surgery, which always has a certain degree of risk of disability or death associated with it. Because declawing provides no medical benefits to cats, even slight risk can be considered unacceptable. In addition, the recovery from declawing can be painful and lengthy and may involve postoperative complications such as infections, hemorrhage, and nail regrowth. The latter may subject the cat to additional surgery." The Association of Veterinarians for Animal Rights (AVAR)

Two recent studies published in peer-reviewed veterinary journals (Vet Surg 1994 Jul-Aug;23(4):274-80) concluded “Fifty percent of the cats had one or more complications immediately after surgery.... 19.8% developed complications after release.” Another study (J Am Vet Med Assoc 1998 Aug 1;213(3):370-3) comparing the complications of declawing with Tenectomy concluded “Owners should be aware of the high complication rate for both procedures." Many cats also suffer a loss of balance because they can no longer achieve a secure foothold on their amputated stumps.

Vet Surg 1994 Jul-Aug;23(4):274-80
Feline Onychectomy at a Teaching Institution: A
Retrospective Study of 163 Cases.

Tobias KS
Department of Veterinary Clinical Sciences,
Washington State University, College of Veterinary Medicine,
Pullman 99164-6610.

"One hundred sixty-three cats underwent onychectomy..... Fifty percent of the cats had one or more complications immediately after surgery. Early postoperative complications included pain..., hemorrhage...., lameness...., swelling...., or non-weight-bearing..... Follow-up was available in 121 cats; 19.8% developed complications after release.
Late postoperative complications included infection...., regrowth...., P2 protrusion...., palmagrade
stance...., and prolonged, intermittent lameness....".

J Am Vet Med Assoc 1998 Aug 1;213(3):370-3
Comparison of Effects of Elective Tenectomy or Onychectomy in Cats.

Jankowski AJ, Brown DC, Duval J, Gregor TP, Strine LE, Ksiazek LM, Ott AH
Department of Clinical Studies, Veterinary Teaching Hospital,
School of Veterinary Medicine, University of Pennsylvania,
Philadelphia 19104, USA.

"Objective: To compare short- and long-term complications after Tenectomy of the deep digital flexor tendons or onychectomy.
Animals: 20 cats undergoing Tenectomy and 18 cats undergoing onychectomy.
Procedure: Cats undergoingTenectomy or onychectomy were monitored for a minimum of 5 months to enable comparison of type and frequency of complications.Type and frequency of complications did not differ between procedures.
Clinical Implications: Owners should be aware of the high complication rate for both procedures."

Psychological & Behavioral Complications
Some cats are so shocked by declawing that their personalities change. Cats who were lively and friendly have become withdrawn and introverted after being declawed. Others, deprived of their primary means of defense, become nervous, fearful, and/or aggressive, often resorting to their only remaining means of defense, their teeth. In some cases, when declawed cats use the litterbox after surgery, their feet are so tender they associate their new pain with the box...permanently, resulting in a life-long adversion to using the litter box. Other declawed cats that can no longer mark with their claws, they mark with urine instead resulting in inappropriate elimination problems, which in many cases, results in relinquishment of the cats to shelters and ultimately euthanasia. Many of the cats surrendered to shelters are surrendered because of behavioral problems which developed after the cats were declawed.

Risk factors for relinquishment of cats to an animal shelter:

"Among 218 cats relinquished to a shelter, more (52.4%) declawed cats than non-declawed cats (29.1%) were reported by owners to have inappropriate elimination problems."
Source: World Small Animal Veterinary Association - 2001

The incidence of behavior problems following onychectomy in cats; two months to five years (median 11.5 months) after surgery:

"(33%) developed at least one behavior problem.
"(17.9%) had an increase in biting habits or intensity."
"(15.4%) would not use the litter box"
Source: World Small Animal Veterinary Association - 2001

Many declawed cats become so traumatized by this painful mutilation that they end up spending their maladjusted lives perched on top of doors and refrigerators, out of reach of real and imaginary predators against whom they no longer have any adequate defense.
A cat relies on its claws as its primary means of defense. Removing the claws makes a cat feel defenseless. The constant state of stress caused by a feeling of defenselessness may make some declawed cats more prone to disease. Stress leads to a myriad of physical and psychological disorders including supression of the immune system, cystitis and irritable bowel syndrome (IBS)..

"The consequences of declawing are often pathetic. Changes in behavior can occur. A declawed cat frequently resorts to biting when confronted with even minor threats. Biting becomes an overcompensation for the insecurity of having no claws. Bungled surgery can result in the regrowth of deformed claws or in an infection leading to gangrene. Balance is affected by the inability to grasp with their claws. Chronic physical ailments such as cystitis or skin disorders can be manifestations of a declawed cat's frustration and stress" David E. Hammett, DVM"

[This message has been edited by nern (edited 01-14-2004).]

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nern

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From:NY, USA
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posted 01-14-2004 03:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for nern     Edit/Delete Message
And this is a wonderful article to read for anyone considering having it done:
Why Cats Need Claws from the Whole Cat Journal http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm

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Chessmind
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From:CA
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posted 01-14-2004 05:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Chessmind     Edit/Delete Message
Thanks for posting that info Nern. Very informative.

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amcfoto
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From:Methuen, MA
Registered: Nov 2003

posted 01-14-2004 07:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for amcfoto     Edit/Delete Message
twisted huh? That's nice

Never said I advocated it and my cats are not and will not be declawed - I personally don't agree with it but would never tell my friends they are lazy, selfish or twisted because they did. And until it is banned, people still have the right to choose. I have seen people constantly try and try to train their pets to no avail. I DO NOT think it's a good thing at all but I do believe in the right to choose how you live your life and care for your pets.

and yes you reserve the right to maintain your opinion but there is no need to be SO HARSH to others about it. Name calling WILL NOT get your point across to others and that is a big part in my maintining my points here. I would never make someone feel like a terrible person because of a choice they have made...and that in NO WAY makes me "twisted"!

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footsie
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From:Vancouver, WA USA
Registered: Jul 2003

posted 01-14-2004 08:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for footsie     Edit/Delete Message
Thank you nern for posting a link with some actual numbers in it. Everything I had looked at before was one horror story after another with no supporting data about the frequency.

I agree with amcfoto that there is no need for name calling or lectureing. Its frustrating to agree with someone and have them continue to agrue with you. I think everyone has said that they wouldn't do it, yet insults continue to be thrown.

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Katerina
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From:Toronto, Canada
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posted 01-14-2004 08:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Katerina     Edit/Delete Message
Personally I'm with amcfoto.

I would never get my cat declawed or tie her up but that's me. Nobody should feel bad becasue they have different beliefs.

I think it is safe to assume that most of us here are caring cat loving individuals.

However I find that many people, wether they intend on being or not, tend to be needlessy harsh and ethnocentric. (Meaning you compare everyone else's culture, beliefs, etc. to your own, using yours as an ideal.)

If this site is to help out anybody I believe we need to be carefull what we write. Try pretending you are someone receiving this information for the first time, would you enjoy people throwing it in your face and wacking you over the head with it. Probably not, you might even get offended.

I personally experienced this when I first joined the site over my second posting and it isn't nice or helpfull since people tend to stop listening once offended.

Everyone is entitled to have their say but that doesn't mean you need to put down other people to say it.

I've also noticed that many (I admit not all) of the developed countries that have made declawing illegal are clustered close to each other in one area of the world. It could be a cultural thing. Maybe this should be considered.

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Caitlyn
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From:Hull, UK
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posted 01-14-2004 11:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Caitlyn     Edit/Delete Message
Yes I think you must be right its a cultural thing and I guess we don't call Britain a nation of animal lovers for nothing then!

I apologise most sincerely for believing in animal welfare and I will no longer support Liberty in their quest to free dancing bears in Albania and Turkey, because that's cultural and I won't support charities that try to get bull fighting stopped in Spain, well that's a cultural thing too! And heaven forbid that we should find the clubbing to death of baby seals digusting because that too is traditional and cultural!!!

Abuse is abuse whatever way you want to dress it up, but no don't feel guilty for cutting part of your cats paws off.. its cultural you know!

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Caitlyn
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From:Hull, UK
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posted 01-14-2004 11:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Caitlyn     Edit/Delete Message

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Chessmind
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posted 01-14-2004 11:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Chessmind     Edit/Delete Message
It's true what they say: A picture is worth a thousand words.

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MaryNH
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From:Campton, NH USA
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posted 01-15-2004 05:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for MaryNH     Edit/Delete Message
"You can lose you fingernail and in time you won't even miss it. I will say that we had them declawed at an early age, so I'm sure that helps, plus we have had wonderful vets. It also hurts to "amputate" their reproductive organs... "

In reply to this having a cat spayed/neutered will extend their life as they will not develop pyrometria/mammory cancer nor testicular cancer. So that arguement doesn't work.

Declawing a cat does NOTHING to extend their life...absolutely nothing. The only one benefitting from declawing a cat is the vet who makes the $$ to perform the operation and the pet's owner as they don't have to deal with training a cat to not claw furniture.

I have a declawed cat (done by her former owner) and I think it's pathetic to watch her. When we play with the wand toy she gets frustrated and walks away as she can't grasp it like the other 2 cats. I have seen her fall off the top of chairs cause she'll jump up and not be able to get a grip, slip and fall off. Studies are now showing many declawed cats have to learn to walk in an unnatural manner and later in their lives they develop spinal problems.

So don't say the cat benefits. Yes I have known people who have double-pawed cats (I have one too) and the little claw in the middle will grow into the pad and they will have that claw removed - in that case it is benefical (I have to check Zeus' little claw weekly). But I will never ever believe declawing a cat is beneficial for anyone other than the owner...

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rogerntami
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posted 01-15-2004 09:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for rogerntami     Edit/Delete Message
well don't tell me that it will not benefit my cats if you dont know or havent seen my cats. They have never fallen off anything because of lack of claws, nor have they had any pain. It is each individuals choice if they want to declaw or not, as long as it is legal. Just like as long as it is legal, women can abort their babies. I may not agree with it, but if it is legal all I can do is try to change the laws.

If it had been illegal, I would not have gotten them declawed. However, the cost of ruined furniture is not one that all of us can afford. Not all of us can just go down to the large retailer and purchase new furniture any time we want. That is just plain ignorance. And you know that not all animals can be completely trained to not do something. But that doesn't bother me as much as the posts by people saying that I should not be allowed to have a pet if i get my cat declawed. Essentially these people are saying that if you cannot afford to buy new furniture you should not be allowed to have a cat. That is hardly fair to those of us who live paycheck to paycheck. Just because a pet owner doesn't declaw their pet does not mean they are a good owner, and vice-versa. Our cats couldn't possibly be more loved and spoiled. I'm sure it drives you crazy to hear successful stories about declawing. I would NOT agree to having an older cat declawed however. Ours were declawed early in their lives, so they adapted very quickly.

And Caitlyn if you have that opinion that I should be shot then you should be shot. I love my animals very deeply, but I do not believe they are more valuable than a human life. Your passions are misguided. You will never convince anyone with your agression. All you do is tick people off.

How can you compare losing a claw to losing a limb?? I have seen cats and dogs lose their claws then regrow them, just like fingernails.

Basically, just lay off the militant comments, it will get you farther...

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Samsintentions
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posted 01-15-2004 10:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Samsintentions     Edit/Delete Message
Ok Ok Ok....They are going to kick you off if yall keep threatening to shoot each other.

We are all entitled to our own OPINIONS.

Frankly, I don't agree with it, however, I can see the other side of the river as well.
I use the plastic guards on my couches and chairs, since I too live paycheck to paycheck as well. I can't run out and get what I want either. I've got a strict budget and my family (including my fur kids, large and small) come way before I do.
I know hard times. I'm a full time student, work full time and devote every other spare moment of my time to my animals and all the rescues that seem to show up. I don't complain, I dont' mutilate my animals to "help my cause" either. I do belive in Spaying and Neutering to help control the population of UNWANTED animals.
I don't get donations, nor do I ask for them when I try to adopt out the animals, to cover food, vet, and meds, ect.....the list goes on and on....
But, I do find alternatives to the problems that cross my path.

Yes, my coffee table, chairs, and couches have the battle scars of the cats, but I didn't rush out to declaw them. I trim them weekly as well as use the protective guards. Which no one notices, because they are clear.

You are lucky your cat(s) have no problems. Very lucky. Its rare that a cat developes no abnormalities after being declawed.

I'm sure your animals are loved as much as everyone elses. This doesn't mean your a bad person. Nor does it amake anyone a bad person for "altering" (by altering I mean spay and neutering) thier animals. I'm sure it is sore after its done. But look on the other sided.

It cuts down on the population AND, its proven healthier for the animals. My only comparison to humans for this issue, is that when a woman decides she doesn't want any more children, she can be altered as well. Does this affect the person??? NO. Does it make them a bad person? No. They are still the same person.

Views are views no matter what mind they are in. We can try to change them, but 95% of the time we'll fail.
All we can do is voice our opinions (in a non violent and threatning manner) and try our hardests to protect those abused.

That being said. Lets just try and get along. I'm not above anyone else. I'm just speaking my OPINION, if I have offended anyone, I appologize.

Lets be peaceful so the moderators don't enterfear in our threads.

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MaryNH
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From:Campton, NH USA
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posted 01-15-2004 10:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for MaryNH     Edit/Delete Message
in regards to the furniture....I don't buy NEW furniture. I buy my furniture from 2nd hand shops or my husband makes it. But...I don't have a problem with my cats (that have their claws) clawing up my furniture. I do have an old hamper they like to claw up...so I keep it hidden in a bedroom so they will continue to use that. I have scratching posts scattered throughout the house also for them to use.

None of my furniture has a speck of damage from my cats...at all. They are easily trained to use scratching posts rather than furniture...it just takes a little bit of time and patience.

I also can't afford to buy new furniture....which is why I buy any in the consignment shop so if there should be any kind of mishap I don't sweat it. I found my kids were harder on my furniture than my cats ever were.

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mybigfunny
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posted 01-15-2004 04:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mybigfunny     Edit/Delete Message
The thing is, I don't think that anyone, besides the cat, will EVER know EXACTLY how it feels to be declawed.

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debant
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posted 01-15-2004 04:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for debant     Edit/Delete Message
my goodness, i've certainly heard an earfull here. In my humble opinion, there is way too much aggression here. My Bella is having surgery tomorrowfor both spaying and declawing. Both my husband and i have tried from the time we took Bella in from the streets (abandoned) at abt. 4 weeks to get her used to various types of scratching posts to absolutely no avail. She's not vindictive, she's just naturally curious with the curtains and likes to stretch with her claws on the furniture. In addition, I like to play with her to keep her spunky and ever "preying" and have taken on a few scratches myself. The bottom line is that she is a happy, well adjusted kitten, actually she is the queen of our castle and knows it, that's ok with us we love her like I could never believe. So when she comes home in two days, we'll take care of her every need, including pain medication (it's 2004), putting shredded newspaper in her litterbox for a few days or so to ease the discomfort in her paws and whatever else it takes to let her know that she is just as loved as before. She'll be fine. She is a cat

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fleafly
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posted 01-15-2004 04:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for fleafly     Edit/Delete Message
I have a futon which the cats have never scratched and a wood coffee table that they have scratched. All I would have to do is buy a metal coffee table or a glass top one and they couldn't hurt it. You can buy furniture that can't be scratched up if that is what you are concerned about.

By the way: I bet it will be illegal to declaw a cat before long in the US. A lot of municipalities have already banned it.

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Katerina
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posted 01-15-2004 04:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Katerina     Edit/Delete Message
Caitlyn: I'm glad that you love your country and how it deals with animal health care issues.

Simply being sarcastic and naming off the animal abuse that they show in commercials saying that you shouldn't support it is not what I mean't and you know it.

Like I said before no reason to be harsh, sarcastic and ethnocentric.

By the way this is the first time that I've heard of Britain being the "Nation of animals lovers"

[This message has been edited by Katerina (edited 01-15-2004).]

[This message has been edited by Katerina (edited 01-15-2004).]

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Katerina
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From:Toronto, Canada
Registered: Nov 2003

posted 01-15-2004 05:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Katerina     Edit/Delete Message

Although I AM SERIOUSLY AGAINST DECLAWING, and long before I joined this site I have convinced many people not to have this procedure done.

However I still strongly believe it is beneficial to hear both sides of any argument. Think of it as an essay, you must acknowledge that other points views exist.

So here is a site that is PRO-DECLAWING
http://www.geocities.com/declawing/

There is an interesting (though slightly outdated) comparison between Britain and the United States that all goes back to.....You guessed it Culture.

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Mab
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From:UK
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posted 01-15-2004 11:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mab     Edit/Delete Message
First of all I have to point out just how pathetic I think rogerntami is obviously he has no sense of figurative speech, I don't know about the US but we tend to think murder is wrong in the UK and to say someone "should be shot" is a term meaning that in an ideal world they shouldn't be allowed to live because of their general wrong doings or evil behaviour (It doesn't actually advocate the act), and doesn't have the brain power to understand that hurting your cat because you don't want your furniture scratched is verging on morally wrong. Sure I have no problem with eating meat and if he wants to go out and kill it and skin it then all power to him, most people who eat meat couldn't do that. Human's are omnivores and are supposed to eat meat.

Secondly I would like to say that I do support the WWF, the RSPCA, The Blue Cross, Liberty and my local shelter where I got two of my cats. They all get a slice of my pay cheque by direct debit every month. You can all sit there and say you are against animal cruelty. I doubt many of you even know what these charities try and do for animal welfare nevermind actually give them money to try and give them the means to make things better for our furry companions.

In the end I don't really care what you think of me. Its really not the issue, I am the kind of person who prefers my animals to people anyway, they have a lot more going for them than the average human. And just for the record if I had to make a choice kill an animal or kill a human, I'd kill the human because quite frankly humanity is selfish and evil, people, in the most part, take what they want from the environment and from animals and never give anything back. They don't live with nature's balance and in the end we'll destroy the planet over it. Declawing is just yet another example of how people think they should control their enironment and the things in it rather than letting them be. I still believe having a tatty sofa and a few scratches on your hand is NOTHING compared to the welfare of your animal!!

Finally to Debant, have you considered having "Soft Paws" fitted to your cat instead of having her declawed, I have heard they work surpremely well and will stop your scracthing problems whilst still keeping your cat intact and healthy. They are not at all painful and just basically put a acrylic cover over the cats claw to stop them damaging things. For kinder than having the cat declawed.

(Oh and yes the moderators removed me for having an opinion that doesn't tally with others, I can imagine the idiot that threatened me is still a valued member but that doesn't surprise me in the slightest!)

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elizavixen
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posted 01-16-2004 04:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for elizavixen     Edit/Delete Message
I figure I will put my 2 cents in on this subject.

First, declawing is not a PERSONAL decision. It is a decision that is not affecting you, it is affecting your cat.

Second, it is not a decision that people do because they are deciding what is best for their CAT. The only reason people get their cats declawed is because it is best for them, not the cat.

Third, if getting a few scratches on your priceless furniture upsets you enough to put your cat through needless pain and suffering, then I suggest you not get a cat.

And to those who say it does not affect cats very much, sure, some cats come out fine. The point is that others (many others) do not. What are you going to do if your cat doesn't come out fine? What if they stop using the litter box? What if they become depressed? There are a lot of cats at a animal rescue org here where I live who are there primarily because their owners got them declawed, then they stopped using the litter box so the owner's decided to just get rid of them. I'm sorry but that just pisses me off.

Anyways, declawing is NOT necessary so why put your cat through all the risks associated with it? It is a selfish thing to do.

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Mab
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posted 01-16-2004 05:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mab     Edit/Delete Message
Well said! Perhaps if there were a few more people like you around we wouldn't have cats who don't have their claws!

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debant
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posted 01-16-2004 06:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for debant     Edit/Delete Message
Look, I have to say it, are you people kidding or what with all your talk of selfishness and what not? I took a kitten in at the approximate age of 3-4 weeks that was found by a co-worker under the overhead highway of Brooklyn, NY, not a good neighborhood. She surely would have been hit by a car, starved or worse if he had not picked her up. I was not in the market for an animal but I fell in love immediately and the rest is history. I'm not looking for a pat on the back, I don't think some of you are capable of compassion to humans but do you really think that that animal would have been better off on the street than being brought into a warm loving home where her every desire is granted. (as far as I can tell anyway, I don't speak kitty, do you?) How the heck do you know what a cat feels other than the obvious? Selfish? Maybe but I have a well rounded life that involves more than just letting the pet decide what's best for me and my household. Key word:PET I'm sure some of you will have a field day with this one!

[This message has been edited by Auspetian (edited 02-03-2004).]

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elizavixen
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From:Columbia, SC, USA
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posted 01-16-2004 06:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for elizavixen     Edit/Delete Message
If that is how you feel towards your animals then I think you should try to find a new home for them so as you are not further inconvenienced.

Cats are not your pets there for your amusement only.

And as to your insinuation that my life is not well rounded, my life is well rounded. I am comfortable not having to be the all powerful head and master of my household. Take your insecurities out on something other than your cat.

[This message has been edited by elizavixen (edited 01-16-2004).]

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Katerina
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From:Toronto, Canada
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posted 01-16-2004 09:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Katerina     Edit/Delete Message
The thought occurred to me today that many people against declawing have stated in one way or another "how do you know that the cat was fine afterwards? Only the cat knows that".

Couldn't it be said in reverse too? How do you know it causes the cat great pain?

Now I'm sure there is some truth, there must be pain but hey no one knows how much or little?.

Pictures tell a thousand words, however if any of the people who are anti-declawing bothered to look over the site I posted you would see that many of the pictures posted here are of outdated procedures done in a fashion that is no longer done.

It would be like posting amputation done during world war two and saying that is how its done in hospitals today. (With the limb next too the patient who is semi-conscious)

This of course DOES NOT make declawing alright at all but like I said you should look at the other side of an argument with openess.

PLEASE EVERYONE STOP CALLING EACH OTHER NAMES, REALLY ARE WE ALL IN GRADE SCHOOL STILL.

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Mab
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posted 01-16-2004 10:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mab     Edit/Delete Message
Well it seems like some people are just never going to get the message. They obviously see their animal in the same way as they do any of their personal possessions, say their TV or their playstation. They are only around for their entertainment. So what next when you're bored of it are you going to put it in the garbage?

So I guess us animal lovers will have to face it, there are some people out there who havent't got an ounce of compassion and care about their furniture more than their cat and as usual it will be the people who *really* care about animals and understand about the welfare of animals that will be left to pick up the pieces.

The only thing I can say to those who want to have their cat declawed is think about the alternatives like Soft Paws before you put your animal through the excruciating pain of having needless surgery. It will be better for your cat in the long run even if it doesn't suit you quite so well.

Oh and Katerina I am not saying what you have put is wrong BUT I would say that most owners know when their animal is in pain, usually it is the crying, plaintive mewing, lethargy, not eating, toileting outside the box, not drinking, generally being out of sorts that gives it away and I differ on the fact that amputation of any limb is not painful, as the nerves are cut they fire misleading message to the brain, this can cause pins and needles, sharp stabbing pains, throbbing, electric shock type feelings amongst a few. How do I know this? I happen to have nerve damage to my arm after a car crash and all scientific evidence points to the fact that cats neurological system is very similar to a humans.. so you can bet your bottom dollar the cat feels exactly the same symptoms as a human. So saying a cat doesn't feel pain from having nerves cut doesn't really have a scientific basis I am afraid.

[This message has been edited by Mab (edited 01-16-2004).]

[This message has been edited by Mab (edited 01-16-2004).]

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Katerina
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From:Toronto, Canada
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posted 01-17-2004 11:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Katerina     Edit/Delete Message
If you had read my message carefully you would have seen that I said of course there must be pain any type of surgery causes pain.

We just don't know how much pain the cat feels since we are not cats.

Most people who said their cat showed no symptoms afterwards must not have noticed any of the symptoms you mentioned so who knows.

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elizavixen
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posted 01-17-2004 12:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for elizavixen     Edit/Delete Message
My question is: Does it really matter how much pain it is? Pain is pain. And putting your cat purposely and unnecessarily through any kind of pain is cruel.

And as for how we don't know how much pain cats feel, that is true. I don't know what it really feels like to have an arm amputated. However, I think I can safely assume that it is an unpleasant experience to say the least.

There are just many other options other than surgery. Buy the cat a scratching post. Get him those soft paws things. Better yet, if you insist on having a cat that has been declawed, go to a shelter or rescue org and get one that has already been declawed. The shelters are full of them.

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nern

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From:NY, USA
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posted 01-17-2004 06:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for nern     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
We just don't know how much pain the cat feels since we are not cats.

True and I suppose it could vary from one cat to another as well.
My co-worker had her cat declawed on Tues.(despite my polite attempts to talk her out of it). On Fri. she told me that the cat was walking backwards alot as if to avoid using its front paws....now that sounds like she must have been in alot of pain and it makes me feel horrible for her. Im not sure if alot of cats act this way after declawing or not but it made me sad to think of how she must be feeling.

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fleafly
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posted 01-17-2004 10:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for fleafly     Edit/Delete Message
I hope she got some painkillers to give the cat for a few days. That is horrible.

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned is the fact that animals are really good at hiding when they are in pain. In the wild it is a weakness to show pain, and could cost the animal their life. Animals have to be in a lot of pain before it is noticable to humans.

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nern

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posted 01-18-2004 02:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for nern     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
I hope she got some painkillers to give the cat for a few days. That is horrible.

She claims she did.

quote:
One thing that I haven't seen mentioned is the fact that animals are really good at hiding when they are in pain. In the wild it is a weakness to show pain, and could cost the animal their life. Animals have to be in a lot of pain before it is noticable to humans.

Exactly. And thats what makes this even sadder....the cat is obviously in pain even though pain killers have been given.

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charmedagain
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posted 02-01-2004 02:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for charmedagain     Edit/Delete Message
Hi My Mum Asked me to add this in as she has cats i dont.
My Mum Has scratching posts for her cats and when she went out and bought a new suite which cost £1500 and they started to scratch at it she didnt mind as they didnt actually mark it.

Cats need there claws for climbing tree' digging when outside and they also need them when jumping on furniture to stop them falling.

My mum has cats for many years and she has never thought of declawing her cats this is inhumane and just does not need to be done.

Having an animals spay/nuetered is needed if they animals is to stay healthy and not end up escaping and falling pregnant.

What is acctually being said in this thread is that declawing is done in the intrest of the owner not the cat.

And as for what would i save if my house was on fire well that would have to be my dogs my partner can get out himself lol.

aslong as they are out nothing else matters.
furniture can be recovered yet the trauma a cat goes through without having claws is just not right i have to agree with the statement, The next time you poke yourself in the face get yourself off down the doctors and ask to have your nails removed.

If cats or any animal in fact could talk they would be alot of dissapointed owners out there when they found out that they cat didnt want declawing.

I worked for the blue cross here in the uk and the amount of animals that i saw come in to the shelter due to being declawed and not using there litter box because of it and some cats have been know to be still in pain some weeks after the operation is done.

Operations to save lives yes operations to remove claws now thats wrong i have to agree with all the other posts that are against DECLAWING and they have some great points.

Keep it up guys.

mike.
boro_lad1976@hotmail.com

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charmedagain
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posted 02-01-2004 03:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for charmedagain     Edit/Delete Message
rogerntami. your talking about whats right and wrong first off brit's aint pansie's and when have you ever bailed our asses out of anything.
We value human life aswell as our animals and as most people will agree there is too many people out there that do whats best for them when it comes to animals rather than whats best for the animal.

People get animals knwing they are allergic and send them off to a shelter.
people get puppy's and soon realise its hard work.
Some people think oh well i have a bitch lets have her mated and see if we can get puppies then realise its hard work and the dog becomes abandoned along with her litter.

People declaw there cats because they scratch the furniture well sorry if they took the time to give there cats things to scratch on and play with this would not be a problem i have to agree declawing is wrong and its a pointless operation that the poor little animals have to go through just so selfhish small minded people like yourself can save your furniture.

I wouldnt say you needed to be shot but i would say you should not be allowed animals.

The reason its illegal over here in the uk is because its suffering on the cats behalf that is just not needed.

You say that having a cat declawed is a a personal choice for everyone so excuse me when was the last time you played with your kitty taught it to scratch a post or something else that was suitable did you have the patience to learn your cat any of this. I bet not, did your kitty scratch your chair and you thought i wont have this he getting declawed.

Its not a personal choice everything that is done for an animal should be in the best intrests of ther animal to make sure it lives a long happy healthy life.

Everyone on this board puts the needs and well being of the animals first.

How do you think your cat would feel if he/she went outside and tried digging a hole to goto the toilet and cant because he dont have his claws no more he will become aggitated and stressed resulting in a very depressed and sick kitty.

my opinions.

mike

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kyles101
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From:Perth, Western Australia
Registered: May 2003

posted 02-01-2004 03:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kyles101     Edit/Delete Message
i prefer animals over humans. hands up the animal lovers! =] id never get my cats declawed. no matter what they did. and i can tell you now the kitten claws everything from brick walls to my legs [i have at least 6 big cuts on me] but i would never deprive it of being a cat, and for a cat to be a cat, they need their claws.

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charmedagain
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posted 02-01-2004 03:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for charmedagain     Edit/Delete Message
Hi kyles great post i agree with your totally scratcing is what comes naturally to cats and declawing should be banned completely and any owner that does have it done should be fined for doing so.

There should be a board on here for animal lovers only hahahahah

mike

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empressjulz
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Posts: 64
From:Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
Registered: Jan 2004

posted 02-01-2004 06:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for empressjulz     Edit/Delete Message
a lot of people have put declawing and spaying/neutering on the same level. it is not.

whilst spaying and neutering may be invasive surgery, they are relatively simple forms of surgery. cats do not feel any pain after the wounds are healed, as there are no nerves or muscles of any kind in the reproductive area. it is akin to a woman having a hysterectomy or a man having a vasectomy.

there are also benefits to spaying. controlling cat populations is a general one, but cats that are spayed stay at home more, fight a lot less, and hence are at lower risks of contracting diseases from strays or other potential mates. neutered cats are at lower risk from developing prostate (males) and ovarian (females) cancer, as well as mamary cancer too. (females).

declawing is an entirely different thing. to put it in imaginable terms, it's like cutting two digits off a human's fingers. one can deal with the pain, but it is still excruciating and difficult to cope with. numerous complications are abound as the area is rich with sensitive nerve structures.

kudos to countries like the UK and malaysia (amongst others) which have banned declawing. i think the fact that entire nations have legislated against the act should wake people up to the cruelty and pain it inflicts on the animal.

it's very easy to feel at ease and think that one's cats are coping well or even "happy" after they've been declawed. to those who claim that... how do you really know? was it really worth it, cutting off a chunk of your kitty's paws just for the sake of something expendible like furniture?

buy her a scratching post and train!

not the easiest way out, but with my 3 kitties, it's worked fine, and if not, who cares about the ikea furniture.

chairs and sofas are replacable, but not my cats' happiness!

///ej

------------------
miao!

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SweetpeasMama
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posted 02-02-2004 10:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SweetpeasMama     Edit/Delete Message
I have a question on this topic. My vet does a laser surgery for declawing cats. It costs about $100 more but they told me it is less pain. Does anyone know any information about the effects of the laser surgery? I have not decided if I will declaw my cat or not. I don't want anyone tellingme what I should and shouldn't do or that I don't love my cat if I do this. I just want information on the laser surgery. THanks.

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Samsintentions
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From:Columbus, Tx ,USA
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posted 02-02-2004 10:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Samsintentions     Edit/Delete Message
Oh please, rogerntami, do not even start that crap.

The USA helps, sure, well so does everyone else. this is a thread about declawing...what does that have to do anythin with forign relations?

Its people like you that do not allow sleeping dogs lay.... Do not bring up something so racial and sensitive as that. I for one am a born Citizen of the US, and I have 50% of my family over there. DON'T even try to speek that crap. They work just as hard as we do, are educated the same if not more than us. So how are you comparing their lifestyles to ours? Just because their in Europe? They aren't much diffrent than us. They could be thinking the exact same thing about us. Do you feel it fair? I hope not.

Your intitled to your opinions on things, but when it affects others patrionage, and pride, thats when I'm intitled to my opinions. And it stands that your racism makes you look like a fool.

As for the declawing, my OPPINION on the subject, is that its unnecessary. I can't see why someone who loves their pets so dearly can't find an alternative method to a cats NATURAL behavior.
If your child begins to scratch at things, do you denail them?? No, you discipline them, find alternitive things for them to do. If you don't like clawing, don't get a cat, if you don't like barking and chewing, don't get a dog. Simple as that. Again thats just my oppinion.

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empressjulz
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From:Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
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posted 02-02-2004 02:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for empressjulz     Edit/Delete Message
*clap clap clap*

excellent sam!

declawing = world war politics?

i didn't think so either.

to be honest i think it is good constructive criticism, it is very deplorable that the US has not taken as big a step as other countries to ban declawing.

but maybe they were *overreacting?

*sarcasm

///ej

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