posted 10-17-2003 05:47 PM         

I am looking for some advice. I run a cagefree pet boutique and recently had three puppies come down with parvo.

Two shit-tzus and a miniature dachsund. They came in fine from the breeder, and the breeder says all the remaining pups and those adopted are fine.

The series of events...

All the puppies were fine and we picked up two and stopped by the vet, with an appointment, to have them checked, get health certificates, etc.. We waited in the waiting room for 20 minutes until the vet came out and said there was a parvo puppy in back and we should leave. The vet asked to see their paperwork, but did not touch the dogs.

Two days later a vet from that office visited our boutique to give the two their exams. All dogs were fine at that point, but a dachsund was a little sluggish. That same day two dogs were adopted out of the boutique. Two days later one of those puppies, a shit-tzu, was sick, as was the dachsund. A few days after that the second adopted shit-tzu was sick. the first shittzu died several days later. The second went to the vet, seemed ok, was allowed to go home in hopes it might perk up around the owner, got violently ill later that night, and spent several days in the vet until dying.

the dachsund, who seemed near death, made a complete recovery.

i feel horrible, of course, that all of this happened but don't know how it happened. all pups were about 12 weeks old, had two sets of live parvo vaccine. i wonder if they got sick at the vet, since they had little exposure anywhere else in a short period of time. the boutique is a new location and had been bleached, these were the first pups in the new location.

now the vet tells us the dachsund can still shed the virus for two weeks, but the internet says a month. we don't want to contaminate the other puppies, or any other dog (we have a dog walking business as well), so we're trying to find the best place for the dachsund until the month is up. we are afraid for the pup to be outdoors where it can shed into the environment. afraid to have it at our house, for fear of picking something up. and are considering friends, but we don't want to risk the disease going anywhere. the whole thing is so tragic and sad, and we want to make sure the tragedy is over and stops here.

any help or suggestions or comments?

posted 10-18-2003 05:22 AM         

i've been thinking about what you said about the breeder. he and his sister do do their own shots, they give me the batch # and expiration date, but maybe they're sloppy. thing is, they seem so on top of the puppies health, worming, bleaching afterwards when people come to visit puppies, i can't imagine they would intentionally risk anything.

i wish there was a way to know. the vet agrees with you that they were sick from the breeder. i talked to the breeder the other day and he said the other shit tzus in the litter were fine, but maybe he's lying? it's been almost three weeks since i picked up the first shit tzu, and two weeks since i went back for his sister, both who died.

Eleven days since the first one showed signs of lethargy and loose stool, and the rest of the puppies seem ok. One had a little loose stool with a little blood but we had the stool analyzed and the vet said it was negative and prescribed flagyl and albon.

posted 10-18-2003 02:54 PM         

Thank you for your advice and information. It's really nice that someone replied to my post. Parvo is such a serious topic, not serious enough for my vet however. I was surprised only you replied...

The vet told me there is a lot of parvo going around down here but there is no sign on their door warning people about parvo going around, they aren't telling people when they come in, dogs walk in and out of the vet office and the floor doesn't get bleached every five minutes, so who knows what gets tracked in for the day. We're going to have a serious talk with the vet as well, I don't think they're being responsible. When the vet did the initial health exams on the puppies, when they were all healthy, his tech used the same thermometer on all of them and only washed it with alcohol, which apparently doesn't kill parvo.

I've thought about not carrying puppies, but the response that we get from people used to caged up glassed in pet stores is so positive and appreciative, I feel like the world supports the idea of a cage-free boutique, perhaps as the way to do away with caged up pet stores. Every night I sleep on it...

If I can't find the 'right' way to do it, I'll let it go. My goal is to have a higher quality enviroment than a breeder, if possible. Finding the right breeders is key.

At the present the puppies are so happy here playing all day, socializing with people, I'm more concerned about them going to the right home where they'll enjoy the same quality of life.

As for the vaccines, I hear you, I'm wary of vaccines anyway, even though they do seem to have their place, but the information about live vaccines getting warm is frightening. I'm going to mention it to the breeder and the vet and see what they say.

The breeder doesn't do maltipoos. His sister raises maltese and toy poodles and i picked two from them recently and both are beautiful, adorable, well adjusted, outgoing puppies with amazing personalities. This leads me to think they're taken care of well, but perhaps they're getting sloppy. I did find some ticks on one of them while at the breeder. Granted Shit-Tzus have long hair, but I noticed it right away.

I fell in love with maltipoos recently when we pet sat for a female named Elvis. She was the most expressive cutest little dog I've ever met, now tied by the Maltese we have here in our 'store'. I love the talking movement of the paws.

I tell you, I have no proof, no proof the breeder was irresponsible or lying, no proof the puppies got sick at the vet, no proof I didn't track it in on my shoes from walking down the sidewalk. I saturate a foot mat outside our door with water/bleach solution so that when people step on the mat, in theory, their soles are bleached. Is it effective, don't know.

posted 10-18-2003 09:59 PM         

Now ,back to Parvo ...Not only can you bring it in on your shoes but also on your clothes ,hands and another dog can be a carrier also .So just a place mat with bleach would not be enough to protect a puppy .Espically if a breeder lied about a shot .My vet is constantly telling me not to let people visit my kennel ,not to allow anyone to touch my puppies except me ,them and new parents .He and all at the clilnic fully believe that people that go from one kennel to another carry PArvo ,kennel cough and other illnesses to other kennels and he lets me know when there are any cases of parvo anywhere near where I am and he is aware of it .He also washes his hands and the table and all equipement in a bleach solution before treating another animal .He has told me alot of times ,come on back but don't get near the table until I clean it .Just had a puppy here with coccidia or a upset stomach .They are really good about things like that .But the breeder is the one responsible for the health and wellbeing of the babies they bring into the world .A breeder without a vet is like the rain with outthe clouds .ALl you get is alot of thunder and no real substance .
Responsible breeders should make sure that any puppy has had the vet to give shots ,should supply those records and a vet to fully check that puppy before it goes .To whomever it goes to .

posted 10-19-2003 03:51 PM         

The breeder does the shots, so claimed, and works with a vet. When I or anyone purchases a puppy the breeder provides a free health exam with his vet, apparently a well-known reputable vet from what I can gather. He guarantees the puppy for a year for congenital or hereditary defects.

We played phone tag with his vet and wound up using our vet and then his vet fell off our mind during the whole 'parvo' thing.

He doesn't sell to pet stores, except us, due to the nature of our cage free environment. I'm questioning him though...

I still wonder if it was actually parvo, at least in the dachsund who is recovering well in our home. Quarantined, only my wife touches him with gloves and an old pair of white sweat pants and a long sleeve shirt worn backwards, which gets bleached along with everything else.

A friend of ours who initially started the 'store', he decided he'd rather breed Maltese, was taking care of the puppies while we were away for our wedding last week and when the dachsund wasn't looking well, he took him home because his dogs were healthy, older, vaccinated, etc..

The next day his large bulldog had bloody diarrea and was as sick as the dachsund, but recovered quickly with antibiotics.

This makes me wonder, as I look back, if the dachsund really had parvo, or just got really sick with something that the vet assumed to be parvo (didn't test the dachsund) and treated like parvo.

The two shit-tzu ate each others poops, one was tested and came back positive for parvo, but i wonder if the vaccines can give false positives a couple weeks later.

I appreciate what you said about your vet and how everything is bleached, etc.. Sounds like a good vet.

Let me ask you something, if you're still with me, one of the things I'd like to do is to create a referral program. If the cagefree idea doesn't work, which would take a lot of joy out of my job, but either way, we'd like to refer people to breeders we trust, people who come to us looking for puppies. They're not looking for breeders, they're looking for a pet store, and the other ones around here are glassed up caged ones, so if I can't offer them the breed they want, I'd rather see them go to a breeder I respect, who can screen them, etc..

What I'm wondering is if breeders would be willing to tack on a referral fee which would be paid by the purchaser and then sent to us, as a way to help us do our cage-free thing, and or, steer people away from pet stores and to breeders. The breeder's income wouldn't be effected.

posted 10-20-2003 06:38 PM         

the breeder covers an exam with his vet, a local well known vet to check the puppy after purchase. the breeder covers the puppy for a year.

i can understand your position, if i was breeding, and i knew my dogs would go to good homes, why bother with a middleman??

i think in the breeder's case, they breed a number of breeds, mainly small breeds, and earn a living doing it. i can understand loving to breed dogs and doing it for a living at the same time, but i imagine once you are doing it for a living, there must be a pressure. one more mother, one more litter, two more pups...

they don't sell to pet stores, at least, they just made an exception for us.

anyway, i'm taking a gamble. if i don't find the perfect home for these pups, they stay with me. i told each one that the day i met them.

thanks again for your time

the dachsund is doing much much better, he's eating the prairie frozen barf diet with some halo vita mineral mix and some freeze dried liver and really thriving so far.