Powered by Click2.com Dogs Cats Horses Birds Fish Other pets


Click here to make Auspet.com your default home page

  Auspet - Message Boards
  - Dogs - Pit bulls
  Proper collar??

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
profile | register | preferences | faq | search

UBBFriend: Email This Page to Someone! next newest topic | next oldest topic
Posted by Topic subject:   Proper collar??
the_maine_pitbull
Member

Posts: 251
From:Allagash, Maine USA
Registered: Oct 2003

posted 09-23-2003 01:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for the_maine_pitbull     Edit/Delete Message
Hey all.. how's it going? Well, my question is about which collar to use. I have a soon to be five month old female APBT, she weighs fifty something pounds (52 two weeks ago) Anyhow.. I am giving all her info so you can help me better.. When I walk her, she pulls very hard. She thrusts her bopdy forward and pulls with all she can and I cannot get her to stop. I am trying to think of the best method of collars. I fear the use of a choke chain because she pulls and it won't stop her AT ALL.. We tried this as a puppy and snd she doesn't work well with them at all. Harness we have tried because I was scared of the way she pulled with a normal nylon or leather strap collar, she would keep pulling and gasping for air and choking herself. I was told to use a shock collar and when she pulls zap her but i REFUSE to EVER use a shock collar on my dogs. My other dog does fine but she is pulling and jumping forward thinking she is going to get further. I thought of a gentle leader or halti head collar which serves the same purpose really.. I do not want to use neck collars because she doesn't get the point of them for some reason. Would the pinch collar teach her that the harder that she pulls she will be pinched?? Someone help me out here.. I am lost.. (Can't ya tell?? lol)

Thanks,
Angie

IP: Logged

Pit_lover_in_Louisiana
Member

Posts: 17
From:Morgan City, Louisiana, USA
Registered: Sep 2003

posted 09-23-2003 11:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pit_lover_in_Louisiana     Edit/Delete Message
Ok all I can do is tell you how I used to deal with Kane when he did the same thing as a pup. I understand you dont like choke chains, I didn't either until I learned how to use it to train him to walk on a leash/lead. Kane was very stubborn as most pitts, I talked to his vet about him pulling to hard when I walked him. The vet told me to get him a choke chain and let him pull because it is their instincts to pull (they were working dogs long ago) I was told that when he started to pull hard to stop in my tracks and pull back and sternly say heel or stop. Don't move until your pup stops. When the pup gets the hang of it usually they will learn to walk at your pace and not have you to walk at theirs. I found that carrying treats with me and giving Kane one when he listened worked really well. In about a week we were walking together and the soreness in my shoulder being ripped out by him pulling finally stopped. Hope this helps. Only other option I can give you is bring the pup to obidence school they can help with that too.

IP: Logged

goob
Member

Posts: 353
From:
Registered: Mar 2003

posted 09-23-2003 12:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for goob     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
I was told that when he started to pull hard to stop in my tracks and pull back and sternly say heel or stop.

That is how neck injuries occur with these types of collar. Plus, if you're having to give that hard of a correction with that type, you need a collar that gives a stronger correction, as putting all that force into giving corrections is only wearing you out and putting him at risk for injury.

What I did with my dog was to stop every time she started to forge ahead, and just stand there until she stood still (not pulling), then call her back to me, and continue on our way. She pretty much hangs by my side now, though it did take a while for her to get the idea. I do let her pull at times, like if we're passing a dog in a yard (that's one of the ways she unloads stress, and I prefer it to the other things she could do in that type of situation), or if she's really wound up, I keep her beside me for a bit, then tell her "free", and she usually starts pulling, but I can get her back under control immediately if I have to.

If you're looking for more of a quick fix, then yes, either a prong collar or head collar could help. A head collar will aid more in control, but less with training. You don't have the risk of correcting at the worng time with them though, as they're not for corrections. Prong collars will either control the dog by it realizing it can't pull when they're on, or teach the dog that when it pulls, you correct it, ie: training it not to pull, but you have to be careful that the dog doesn't start to form any associations between corrections and people/dogs/objects/places, or you may end up with problems (this is true for any correction type collar though, not just prongs). There is a risk of misuse, abuse, and injury with either type.

IP: Logged

Pit_lover_in_Louisiana
Member

Posts: 17
From:Morgan City, Louisiana, USA
Registered: Sep 2003

posted 09-23-2003 12:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pit_lover_in_Louisiana     Edit/Delete Message
Thanks for making me realize that I misworded goob. I didnt mean jerk the pup back or pull as hard as the dog was. What I meant simply was that I really just put a little tension on the lead and didnt move until he realized we weren't going any where until he stopped walking me instead of me walking him. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

IP: Logged

RottyMommy

Moderator

Posts: 449
From:Harrisburg,PA USA
Registered: Feb 2003

posted 09-24-2003 10:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for RottyMommy     Edit/Delete Message
I would stay away from choke collars as in tests they have caused over 90% of the dogs to have trauma to their necks. I would also stay away from gentle leaders and head haltis also as this can also damage a dogs neck. If they are into something the only way to get their attentcion back with that type of mechanicism is to yank their head back. I have used both a no pull halter which fits similat to a regular halter but restrains their front legs from pulling rather than pulling at their neck. The other that I have used is a prong collar. Which make sure you know how to properly use that before you use it on your dog. I trained my first rottweiler with the no pull halter but my second rescued rotty wouldnt allow me to put a halter on her so considering the fact that she is 115 pounds of pure strength I got the prong collar so I wasnt dragged down the street. If used properly it is a great tool for training. If you are interested in that I can post an article on the proper way to use and fit a prong collar. Good luck

IP: Logged

the_maine_pitbull
Member

Posts: 251
From:Allagash, Maine USA
Registered: Oct 2003

posted 09-24-2003 12:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for the_maine_pitbull     Edit/Delete Message
Yes RottyMommy-- I would appreeciate that and I am sure many others would as well. I am sure people that are using prong collars now may be using them incorrect so it would be a great idea.. I didn't like the idea of haltis/head collars at all because of the fact that it is their head pulling and that sort of bothered me. I figured she couldhurt her self easily. The choke chains, they may work for some people but I do not like the idea of choking my dog.. she needs to learn other ways. I cannot choke her to listen.. I am sure that her pulling and gagging and coughing isn't helping anything at all and I feared throat problems coming from it later on.. Anyhow.. thanks fo rthe advice and I'll be looking forward to your post.. Others who also replied.. thank you for taking the time to do so.. Very much appreciated..

Angie and the Gang

IP: Logged

MissMinaGirl
New Member

Posts: 9
From:California
Registered: Sep 2003

posted 09-24-2003 08:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MissMinaGirl     Edit/Delete Message
Angie,

No offense to anyone who uses chokers and prongs. I firmly believe that since we have lived with canines for thousands of years, we can use our intellect much better than sticking on a device that restricts the passage of air to our dogs.

I used to use chokers and prongs for the bigger dogs. It was just the way I was taught. I would never use them now.

I use Gentle Leaders. Unless your dog is actually flipping around in the air, then a gentle leader is actually the best choice. It is DOES NOT PULL on their head. It works the same way as a horse halter does, where the head goes the body naturally follows. You do have to adjust the dog to having a snout band put on.

The ULTIMATE point to consider is that these are all TRAINING devices. They are NOT supposed to be used all the time. Once the dog is leash trained, off goes all training devices. My dog has no need for her gentle leader (we do use it in novel or stressful situations) as she is leash trained.

As bizarre as this method may sound, I have found it to be the best (and you don't even have to use a gentle leader if you don't want too, although a collar and halter work against the nature of the dog so they will be more likely to pull when there is pressure against their neck or chest).

Let your dog pull. Just stand there. Believ me, this is a well tested training method for walking on a loose lead. The millisecond the dog stops pulling and there is a little slack in the lead, you move forward. It is a repetitive procedure and time of learning depends on the dog. My dog learned a loose lead on her very first walk, so it can occur quickly or it can take several times (I worked with one dog who took WEEKS to learn it, but he finally did!).

You can also train to a target stick. Once a dog is trained to target, and is reinforced for it they will target just about anywhere, any time. I have used target sticks for my other foster dogs but not for Mina because she had a fear of sticks. She is over that now, but it certainly was not an initial way to train her.

So, the hype about GL's or haltis hurting the dog is just that - hype. The ONLY time I would not use them is when the dog is so aggressive that they will actually flip or contort themselves when they reach the end of the GL. In that case, a different training regimen is in order!

Please, though, I urge you to avoid methods that involve crushing the airways of your dog. Regardless of what ANYONE says, that is what chokers and prongs were made for. Their effectiveness varies and is not based on the "sound" like some claim, but based on the pop+choke. And if your dog does pull at the end of a GL and flips, then yes, find another method. It may require extensive at home training of a loose lead and a gradual exposure to increased stimuli before the dog is ready to go out in the real world.

Marji

IP: Logged

goob
Member

Posts: 353
From:
Registered: Mar 2003

posted 09-25-2003 01:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for goob     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
It is DOES NOT PULL on their head.

Then where does the pressure you put on the leash to stop/slow them down go to? I'm not picking a fight, but the above is pretty misleading.

quote:
It works the same way as a horse halter does, where the head goes the body naturally follows.

Oooorrrr if your dog is like mine, they're prancing along happily with a couple feet of lead, when they see/smell something they want to check out. They promptly do the "head crunch" trick, hunker down, and head on over there anyway, dancing sideways with their head turned towards you. In her case, when the GL was on, head followed shoulders. A GL will NOT stop a smart/determined dog from getting to what they want (not much will though, when you get right down to it).

There is as much chance for misuse with a head collar as there is with a prong collar, and many people DO misuse them. Couple that with the fact that some dogs NEVER get used to the noseband, which makes the GL (and other headcollars) as much (if not more) of an aversive as a properly used correction collar, and you've pretty much equaled out on benefits/disadvantages of each. It all comes down to personal preference, and individual dog.

For the record, I don't use correction collars on my dog either, she's walked on a flat collar, except for walks in the neighborhood, when I put on a slip collar in addition to her flat collar, and hook the leash to both, so that if she slips the flat collar, she's not loose (the slip collar hangs loosely at the base of her neck, and doesn't "correct" in any way).

IP: Logged

RottyMommy

Moderator

Posts: 449
From:Harrisburg,PA USA
Registered: Feb 2003

posted 09-25-2003 10:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for RottyMommy     Edit/Delete Message
I dont now how you can say a head collar doesnt pull on their head. It sure does. As for choke collars I would never use them there are far too many injuries with both head collars and choke collars. As for prong collars. Other than no pull halters they are the only thing I have found to be effective when you have a dog that weighs almost as much as you do. My newest rescued rotty weighs 115 pounds. If I use a regular collar on her she will continually choke herself on walks and drag me up the street with her. However as with any collar it needs to be used properly and it is only a training device never to be left on. I have seen to many dogs all of a sudden wanting to take off after something and getting their head snapped back in the process with a head collar. And when I have 2 rottweilers with high prey drives Im not willing to take the possiblity of my dog snapping her neck.

IP: Logged

honeybear
Member

Posts: 373
From:
Registered: May 2003

posted 09-25-2003 02:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for honeybear     Edit/Delete Message
I had the same problem with my lab - after 8 weeks of obediance training and using a choke, he still pulled. But mostly it was when he saw kids or another dog on our walks. he weighed 85 # and I was 100# Several times I had to let go of his leash in bad situations (like on a street). I was at my wits end. A freind recommended a trainder she used. I had one visit with her and she told me to use a prong - she instructed on the size(very important, she said most people think because they have a big dog they need a big prong, and it is overkilland they dont know how to porperly use them). she used one maybe 1/2# wide. and showed me how to use it. It worked wonders. Jakes body style is the big stocky lab with the huge necks and still the small prong worked He also was about a year old - I dont know the age you can start using these. I heard also that you shouldnt use choke on pups younger than 6 months

I would recommend it but again they need to be sized and used properly.
Honeybear

IP: Logged

MissMinaGirl
New Member

Posts: 9
From:California
Registered: Sep 2003

posted 09-28-2003 04:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MissMinaGirl     Edit/Delete Message
The point of the GL is to work with the natural inclination of a dog's body. Perhaps my wording was misguided or inapropriate when I stated that it does not pull on their head. The point I was making was that the pull on the head does not create the same resistance as a pull on the neck does. A pull on the neck creates the natural tendency to pull back - resist the pressure on the neck which can make moot any attempt to pull the dog along. The GL does not work on that same principle. If you guide a dog by their head, there is the more natural inclination for the body to simply follow instead of resisting.

With any training device, desensitization and an assocation with positives have to occur. If anyone recalls having a puppy, they know the same thing is true of fitting a pup with a collar or trying to teach them to walk on a lead - they resist at first because it is entirely unatural. (Note: when I say "they", please take it to mean average, not necessarily EVERY dog).

There ARE NOT far too many injuries from head collars and I offer you the opportunity to produce reports from vet offices and rescue organizations to prove me wrong. As I pointed out, injuries that do tend to occur, occur because of improper training and extremely driven dogs. There are plenty of injuries from chokers as most vets, vet schools and rescue organizations can attest too. I, personally, have also seen injuries from prong collars but they have been injuries inflicted on hair and skin, not on neck, per se.

However, the dog is not going to "snap their neck" with a GL. That would require an incredible amount of force, far more than a GL can inflict.

In any event, I think training is the best method to curing any pulling problems. Most dogs can be trained without ever using any training collar. If the prong collar works for you, fine, but it does not for me and after the damage it did to one of my Pit Bull rescues, I won't be using it again. That is just ME. I still firmly believe that the best method of training a dog to walk on a loose lead is the one that does not require ANY training collar - training to a target and patience.

Marji

IP: Logged

goob
Member

Posts: 353
From:
Registered: Mar 2003

posted 09-28-2003 10:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for goob     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
The point I was making was that the pull on the head does not create the same resistance as a pull on the neck does.

This is dependent upon the individual dog. As I said before, my own dog will throw a royal fit if I try to lead her along a la GL (yes, she was properly desensitized to it, and would normally behave well on it), but rarely puts up any resistance when I try to pull her someplace by her collar. Dogs are different, and not all will react to something in the same way. In my dog's case, if I were to use a correction collar on her, I'd likely use one of those microprongs. That's a moot point though, because she does just fine on a flat collar, and at 10 yrs old, I don't see that changing before she's gone.

quote:
I, personally, have also seen injuries from prong collars but they have been injuries inflicted on hair and skin, not on neck, per se.

I've seen numerous dogs with the hair rubbed off on their snouts from GLs... not improperly used, just rubbing action on fragile fur. And why do you think some dogs have fleece or other fabrics around the noseband of their GLs? Those skinny little nylon straps can cut into a dog's nose if they put up a fuss or try to pull at the GL anyway. There are some dogs too who's fur/skin will be irritated by almost ANY type of collar, be it prong, or GL, or even nylon flat collar. My dog has lost a good bit of fur on the bottom and sides of her neck from her flat collar rubbing... doesn't mean it's injuring her (though I'll be ordering one with a lining on the underside next time).

quote:
As I pointed out, injuries that do tend to occur, occur because of improper training and extremely driven dogs.

And what is your solution for "extremely driven dogs"? You urge us to "avoid methods that involve crushing the airways of your dog", so what is your solution for high drive dogs with problems and owners who do not have the ability to work with them using only PP methods? We have one extremely high drive dog who I've trained using almost completely PP, but at times I've been ready to fling her over a cliff (only kidding), I've been so fed up with her quirks. I can easily see how others would get fed up and lose their patience, either resorting to misuse of the training equipment or dumping off the dog because it "wouldn't listen". And I would much rather see a dog wearing a training collar that is used correctly, than see it dumped off at the nearest shelter to die.

I'm also curious as to how many of the prong collar injuries were caused by misuse of the collars, or by high drive dogs getting out of control... you appear to know the circumstances surrounding head collar injuries, yet you make no mention of those surrounding prong collar injuries, which I find odd, since you seem so strongly against the use of prong collars.

quote:
However, the dog is not going to "snap their neck" with a GL. That would require an incredible amount of force, far more than a GL can inflict.

It's not the "force" of the GL... it's the force of the momentum caused by either the human, or the dog. Coming from someone who's seen their own 60 pound dog hit the end of a (almost new, and I'd bought from the same line before, with NO problems) 6 ft leash with enough force to twist the clasp at the end (it was one like the one in this pic: http://pic7.picturetrail.com/VOL201/1320985/2511494/33293813.jpg ) and get free, and break numerous snaps on her 25 ft cable (some rated as high as 2500lbs, now I double up on the snaps if I tie her out), I would imagine the "force" could be pretty strong in some cases, more than enough for serious or even fatal injury. There are dogs out there that can pull over 5,000 lbs from a standstill, that's pure brute strength, not even any real dynamic movement until they get the weight started.

Injuries can and DO happen with any type of collar, the best an owner can do is select a device that both they and their dog can use comfortably, and learn how to use it properly. That may be a prong, or a GL, or a flat collar, a harness, or even no collar at all. Whatever works.

IP: Logged

red_nose_21
Member

Posts: 14
From:fort riley. ks. usa
Registered: Sep 2003

posted 09-29-2003 06:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for red_nose_21     Edit/Delete Message
My dog loves to pull until onday i had to watch my friends dog for a week and he had on what you call a prong collar it works great now she doesn't pull it will hurt the first time cuz they think it is a regular collat and then they get the point my other friend has a dog that pulls and pulls and i told him to buy one and try it and he loves it. But the choke collars will crush your dogs air cord in their throat and then your dog will die slowly and then you think it will be all your fault. But the prong collars work wonders. I recomanded it.

IP: Logged

All times are ET (US)

next newest topic | next oldest topic

Administrative Options: Close Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic
Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Hop to:

Contact Us | Auspet.com


Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.45c


Secrets Of A Professional Dog Trainer!
This E-book basically covers all three categories of training your dog: fixing dog problems, tips and secrets to use in your everyday training, and buying and raising a new puppy or older dog. It applies to all breeds and ages of dogs. It doesn't matter if you own an old dog or a young one, the information is, in some cases, shocking! You'll be saving time and money, avoiding mistakes and disastrous situations, and learning secrets other people only wish they knew....an excellent buy at only $49.97. Available for immediate download.

Doggy be good
This Dog Training Guide will help you turn your dog into the well disciplined, well behaved companion that you always dreamed of, and to reveal a freedom filled lifestyle that you never knew existed. By identifying the causes of why your dog is unruly or out of control is what leads you to the solutions to making them the opposite. This E-book will open your eyes to a whole new world!...$19.95. Available for immediate download.



Web hosting, $7.95 per month. Free domain. Free setup.
800  MB of space,  40 GIG transfer, 400 email address,
SSI,  SSL,   MySql,  CGI, PHP  &  much more...Click here












Home | Contact us | Advertise here | Jobs at Auspet | Software Downloads |
© 1999-2003 AusPet.com