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Posted by Topic subject:   Pitbull vs. Man
the_maine_pitbull
Member

Posts: 50
From:Allagash, Maine USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted 06-03-2003 10:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for the_maine_pitbull   Click Here to Email the_maine_pitbull     Edit/Delete Message
For one, I am new to this site.. however, the most insulting thrad that I have read on here is one titled "Why Pitbull's ruined my life" I want to address this situation. For one, NO ONE in their right mind, and I mean no one, owns ANY dog of any breed without knowing the breed. Doberman's as well as Pitbull's are both known for aggressiveness and anyone with any intellegence knows that these dogs should not be mixed and mingled. Two females, two males, either or, should not be left alone. You could leave a male and a female alone, but any dog of any breed should not be left unsupervised with the same sex. Another thing, one of those Pit's came from a shelter, no one knows it's history, if it was abused or fought or what the case was so why trust it. It made me sick that you put these dogs down. Go to www.pbrc.net and check it out. Many and I mean many dogs have survived with three legs, many can overcome fighting marks. What is to say that the Doberman wasn't jealous of the two "newbie" dogs and attacked first. What can anyone say?? I personally think that those two Pitbull's could have been taken in by a rescue center and could have been placed in a well respectable and loving home. I think what you have done was considered to be animal cruelty. It was your fault 100% and no matter what the case may be, they were other options for those two dogs. You couldn't live with seeing them and knowing what they done.. so find them a new home. Don't expect sympathy from me. Here is my story.. I owned two female APBT's. They often got into grumbles over simple things basically jealousy of attention. Tootsie we had for twelve years and Bandit we had for two. They were both put down to end their lives. Tootsie was old and used to the way she lived when Bandit came along at a year old. After a few months they started disagreeing with each other. However, the two were kept apart. Tootsie's life came abruptly short due to the damage that bandit caused to slow her down more and at her age she was having a harder time to get around as it was, so we put her down. However, Bandit wasn't blamed. It is just nature of the breed to fight to be number one. They dont' step down from nothing and some may not intialize a fight but they definately won't walk away from an invitation to one. Bandit had a health issue that her brain was growing too fast for her skull and it caused her to become aggressive so in order for her to not suffer anymore shewas put down. Those were my angels. But now, I look at it and do not blame them for anything. Bandit was not the reason for Tootsie's death. Yes, she never helped but it was not her fault. It was mine for allowing two female Pit's in my home. However, things worked out just fine. You can't just get dogs and think that because they get along well things will be fine. Because.. Pitbull's are sneaky. They like to act like they are innocent and they do more damage when you aren't looking than they do when you are. They are extremely intellegent dogs, don't underestimate the breed!!

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Freedom
Member

Posts: 36
From:W-S, NC, USA
Registered: Feb 2003

posted 06-04-2003 08:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Freedom   Click Here to Email Freedom     Edit/Delete Message
I agree with most of your post, about how you shouldn't leave dogs together unsupervised, but I'm a little confused over this part.

"Bandit had a health issue that her brain was growing too fast for her skull and it caused her to become aggressive so in order for her to not suffer anymore shewas put down."

Did a licensed vet actually tell you this? Are you sure she didn't have a brain tumor?

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Pitgrrrl
New Member

Posts: 6
From:Atlanta, GA USA
Registered: Apr 2003

posted 06-05-2003 06:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pitgrrrl     Edit/Delete Message
I was wondering the same thing myself, Freedom. I sure hope a vet didn't tell them this. That is one of the oldest enduring urban legends about certain breeds of dog. It used to be the Doberman who had a skull too small for its brain that went crazy and "turned" on its owners when the brain grew....

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the_maine_pitbull
Member

Posts: 50
From:Allagash, Maine USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted 06-05-2003 06:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for the_maine_pitbull   Click Here to Email the_maine_pitbull     Edit/Delete Message
Okay, here is the deal.. Bandit never turned on her owners.. she just grew extremely jealous which is normal of the breed. But then she started attacking people for no reason at all, attacked a 2 year old kid for no reason at all and it was pretty bad. Anyhow. She was attacking everyone and everything. In crowds of people she would just attack for no reason. we didn't know what the hell to think. So we put her down. The place we took her to put her down had no idea, so they asked if we would allow them to ship her body off for testing. Now normally this would be an absolute NO!! but in this case they were trying to find if it was somethign with the breed or just her. Anyways. They found nothing wrong with her and that is what they gave us for an excuse.

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Freedom
Member

Posts: 36
From:W-S, NC, USA
Registered: Feb 2003

posted 06-05-2003 10:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Freedom   Click Here to Email Freedom     Edit/Delete Message
"she just grew extremely jealous which is normal of the breed."


What do you mean by that? Please explain in detail. Also it sounds like she might have had some type of brain tumor, that caused her onset aggression, or she could have had sudden rage syndrome. Who knows, sometimes with bad breeding dogs can be wired wrong.

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the_maine_pitbull
Member

Posts: 50
From:Allagash, Maine USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted 06-06-2003 08:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for the_maine_pitbull   Click Here to Email the_maine_pitbull     Edit/Delete Message
Maybe.. I really am not sure.. I just know that her aggressive behavior was getting rterrible with biting anyone who she saw. It got real bad..

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goob
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Posts: 186
From:
Registered: Mar 2003

posted 06-07-2003 07:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for goob     Edit/Delete Message
What do you mean by "fighting marks"? It really doesn't matter if an APBT has been used for fighting or not, if they're going to become dog aggressive, they'll do it with or without human intervention... genetics are far stronger than anything we humans can do after the dog is born.

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jeminn
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Posts: 52
From:
Registered: Jul 2003

posted 09-01-2003 04:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jeminn   Click Here to Email jeminn     Edit/Delete Message
I do not understand why anyone would want to own this breed after reading "why a pitbull ruined my life". This is a breed you cannot trust, period. Like everyone who owns this breed says, the first thing you need to know is to never leave them alone with each other, with any kind of other pet, a child etc. This breed is definetelyl NOT man's best friend. I have worked with Dobies, Rotts and German Shepherds for protection and obedience training for many years. As you all know, these are protective, aggressive breeds that have their own set of problems when in the hands of the wrong kind of individual. However, there is something different about the Pit. I completely agree with communities that want to ban this breed in their towns, and at dog parks. I commend the person who had enough sense to put down her dangerous animals. What if it were children that her dogs would have mauled? Would it have been the kids fault too for being in the same room with those animals? Were talking about a bloody death here, and you are defending that the animal was only doing what it comes naturally? Why own a dog that is capable of such brutality?
I think you are the ones being irresponsible and playing games with lives of other animals and people.

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GoodboysBaddogs
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Posts: 47
From:Los Angeles, Ca.
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 09-02-2003 01:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for GoodboysBaddogs   Click Here to Email GoodboysBaddogs     Edit/Delete Message
IT ALL HAS TO DO W/ HOW YOU RAISE THE DOG!!!
Although, if you have a late start in their life, things WILL be difficult...
You need to have STRICT DICIPLINE. Especially w/ "working-type dogs", and your notorious Pitbulls, whom have this aggression instilled in them.
I've known a "few" people that have a well socialized Pitty, w/ no aggression problems at all.
I've also noticed that the people w/ pitties that are spontaniously, or just straight-up aggressive w/ other dogs &/or people, are'nt that very responsible owners and people in general.
You need to be extra responsible.
I own an American Bulldog & a Chinese Shar Pei that are NOT neutered, and they are the friendliest dogs in ANY situation!
The dogs that seem to have problems w/ my dogs still having their testicles are the ones w/ aggressoin, NOT MINE! Otherwise, every single male or female dog would have aggression towards my dogs, and thats NOT the case.

LOVE is the KEY to a better LIFE!!!----------
Unconditional, the way they give it to us!
That's the best way to solve ANY problem, straight-up L.O.V.E.
I'm so tierd of hearing all these irresponsible owners that are giving/keeping Pittbulls a bad name.
Just be freakin responsible, and raise them w/ unconditional love.
Obviously, they still have a strong "will" to be who they were, fighters!
LOVE is the best way out, start young.
Or choose another breed! If you can't handle the responsibility. Plain & simple.

------------------
...it's the understanding of what's wrong, when you only know how to do right...

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the_maine_pitbull
Member

Posts: 50
From:Allagash, Maine USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted 09-02-2003 05:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for the_maine_pitbull   Click Here to Email the_maine_pitbull     Edit/Delete Message
It makes me sick to see such absent minded people.. some of you (most) have it all down packed. You understand that it is all the owners who determine the dog.. I am very disturbed by the fact that someone would be on a PItbull message board if they are against the breed. You can't tell me that these dogs have any problems tnat any other dog doesn't have. A GSD can be aggressive, a hound or husky or lab, even Pugs or Pomeranians.. I own two Pitbull's. the only problems I am currently having are Separation Anxiety issues, and demodectic mange and a simple ear infection. Anything aggressive there??? Most Pitbull's are not human aggressive. If you can't handle ownership and responsibility of a dog (despite breed-- they can all attack) then get yourself a cat. But don't come in here with a negative attitude towards a dog you have no experience personally owning.. I can do the same with you.. I can run my mouth not knowing you.. Maybe it is you that fears the fact that you do not have enough skill or knowledge as well as the strength to train a dog of that intellegnece. Maybe you are just too damn lazy.. Is that why you discriminate.. is your knowledge all fed by media.. How well do you know Pitbull breed dogs? Obviously not well.. there is no positive press for Pit's due to people like you and it will slowly kill the breed... And then what.. start giving labs hell.. It [EDITED by moderator]****** me off to see such a prejudice person who thinks they know something.. you obviously don't.. Join the Pitbull-L message board and tell that to them.. they will give you positive reinforcement and you will learn that there are incredible dogs out there.. Just look.. Ripley's Believe It or Not and The Oprah Winfrey Show had a PItbull that was hit by a car, shot in the head, locked in a freeser and still wagged it's tail.. Anyhow.. you need to get your facts straight because you do not know anything apparently..

[This message has been edited by Jas (edited 09-03-2003).]

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jeminn
Member

Posts: 52
From:
Registered: Jul 2003

posted 09-02-2003 12:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jeminn   Click Here to Email jeminn     Edit/Delete Message
The only experience I have had with pitbulls was at our boarding/training facility where we raised shepherds and Rotties for the police force. We occassionally got a pitbull in for boarding, they were not used for protection training because of their unpredicibility and untrustworthiness. This was not my decision, but the kennel owner and police force's decision based on their 30+ years of experience. The facility also boarded up to 150 dogs so, I have some observation experience, as well as training with many different breeds of dogs, in various situations, obedience, boarding, grooming etc. The pits we had in for boarding were fine dogs. Beautiful dogs. However, I do not think we can ignore what has happened in recent years to this breed. There are many types of dogs that have aggression issues, and you are right when you say "IT DEPENDS ON HOW YOU RAISE THE DOG". This is true for any breed, large or small, mixed or purebred. I believe to continue to try and breed, rescue and defend the pitbulls will only continue to bring down the breed itself. No,they are not the only breed to be wary of,I realize that. I have seen Labs with aggression problems, especially the chocolates, which I also believe had been subject to poor breeding standards. I have seen prey-driven animals do what they instinctively love to do, prey and kill small animals. There are certain characteristics about each breed that warrant caution. I have worked with many, many different breeds and could tell you something negative, and yet positive about each and every one. However, the pitbull has a history, and it is because of that history that I find them to be untrustworthy animals, PERIOD. Training is key, responsible ownership is key, for any animal. But those are pretty subjective terms, depending on who you are talking to!
I have never seen so many arguments and disaggrements about any other breed as much as I have seen on the message boards of the pitbulls. The arguements, the disagreements the backlashing, are all between pitbull owners, which I find intriging in itself.
There is an interesting connection here between owner and breed. Try to understand where the majority of people are coming from in the community with regard to this breed, instead of perpetuating the problem with your own rage.

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GoodboysBaddogs
Member

Posts: 47
From:Los Angeles, Ca.
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 09-02-2003 04:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for GoodboysBaddogs   Click Here to Email GoodboysBaddogs     Edit/Delete Message
Hi,
All i'm trying to say is:
If your not a responsible person,
DON'T OWN A DOG, because w/ dogs, comes MAJOR RESPONSIBILITIES.
This is probably the closes thing to owning a freakin human-being!!!

GOOD LUCK TO US ALL, ESPECIALLY ME...

------------------
...it's the understanding of what's wrong, when you only know how to do right...

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the_maine_pitbull
Member

Posts: 50
From:Allagash, Maine USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted 09-02-2003 04:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for the_maine_pitbull   Click Here to Email the_maine_pitbull     Edit/Delete Message
I do not like the way that you (Jeminn) feel the need to just dis a breed, due to "YOUR EXPERIENCES" You are labelling them all for a few's actions.. That would be like me saying all female are [EDIT]***** because a few are.. or all men are child molesters because a few are.. It would be like me saying all the stars are the same size.. It just isn't right for you to judge a dogbreed due to your "indirect experience" with them.. Have you studied and really got into the Pitbull breed? You can't say we relate to the breed in any ways.. we are all just very sick of "HYPOCRITES" like your self trampling all over those we love. Would you like me calling your children [EDIT]******? Or your father a [EDIT]*****? Or your mother a [EDIT]*****? I know this is all inappropriate to say, but it will help me get my point acrossed. I cannot have children and if I could I wouldn't want them anyhow, so all that I have is put into these dogs. I own two Pitbull's which are four months old, I have always had Pitbull's as well as Lab's. I had a chocolate and a black. You are on crack to say chocolates are the meanest, that is a dead lie. Maybe you just have a very [EDIT]***** opinion. But for you to say things about us who are protecting the breed, it is a part of our family that you are making fun of and discriminating against. Go visit the Pitbull-L message board, they will tell you all that they know about the breed. They are great dogs, so do not make your "Professional" opinion because it means nothing. All you are doing is[EDIT] ****ing people off for trying so hard to help this breed get some positive press and [EDIT]***** like yourself are out there to ruin the breed coimpletely with BSL's and bans and so forth.. So before running your mouth, know your facts.

***[This post has been EDITED to comply with list rules, please post without using inappropriate language. ---- Moderator]***

[This message has been edited by Jas (edited 09-03-2003).]

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jeminn
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Posts: 52
From:
Registered: Jul 2003

posted 09-02-2003 04:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jeminn   Click Here to Email jeminn     Edit/Delete Message
I do not claim to know any facts. All I claim to know is that the dog SEEMS to be unpredictable and untrustworthy. And for the most part that is what everyone on this board keeps saying, and repeating to everyone who posts any kind of message here. My point about the chocholate lab was only to say that I realize not all dogs (even the ones with the good reputaions, like a lab) can have problems. I think anyone who owns a dog understands that there are good breeders out there and there are not good breeders, which can affect the temperments of the breed, any breed. There are good trainers and bad trainers. Good owners and bad owners. This board is here for opinions to be expressed and that is all I have done. Too bad if I am tough on you "Main pitbull"..I have more respect for "GoodboysBaddogs" because his posts are not hate-driven. This does more for teaching us "fools" about the breed than your name-calling. If you want to help the breed, lighten up, and try to understand where people are coming from. Dogs are as individual as people. I have not resorted to name calling or claiming to be an expert on the pitbull. I just would not choose to own one based on the information about the breed, let alone experiences I have heard and read about such as "Why a pitbull ruined my life". Recently a news report told of a woman who left her child in a swing at home, stepped out on the porch and when she came inside, her pitbull had mauled and killed her 2 year old daughter. Owners fault, right? Same old story- it gets old. These dogs are NOT TRUSTWORTHY animals, in my unprofessional opinion, which I am completely entitled to have.
Your defensiveness about this issue leaves me to wonder what kind of owner you are, and I for one am thankful you are not my neighbor and that you do not have children.
I am done on this board- to the pleasure of all the pitbull fans, I am sure.
Thank you for all the insight. I have learned a lot more about the breed and the people who own them. Good luck with your dog(s).

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Jas

Moderator

Posts: 163
From:
Registered: May 2003

posted 09-02-2003 11:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jas     Edit/Delete Message
**Attn** : Jeminn. This is a pit bull forum for owners and lovers of the breed. Some of your comments about pit bulls are inappropriate here. Many of the people here own these dogs as family pets and loyal companions. People have successfully owned, raised & trained this breed for years/generations. Your remarks are not only insulting but hurtful to those who own a wonderful companion. There is no need to post in this forum if you are against the breed. If your intentions are to come on this forum and get everyone fired up about a breed close to their heart please take it elsewhere.

Any dog is capable of harming a person or another animal.

Regards
Moderator

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the_maine_pitbull
Member

Posts: 50
From:Allagash, Maine USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted 09-03-2003 06:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for the_maine_pitbull   Click Here to Email the_maine_pitbull     Edit/Delete Message
Jas-- VERY WELL SAID!! Jeminn.. you want to see what I do for these dogs and what type of owner I am.. go to my website.. www.geocities.com/the_maine_pitbull/american.html You will see all that I do for these dogs and then you can tell me what type of owner I am.. Any person breeding Pitbull's at this point in time is a bad breeder in my opinion. There are too many PIttie's out there in shelters being put down each day to just be breeding and adding more to society. We need to get the crack heads and druggies and amateurs dogs away and start getting more strict on Pitbull ownership. We cannot allow absent minded people such as yourself (Jeminn) to own a dog, because there are already too many of them out there. I am glad I am not your neighbor as well because I would be personally leaving the dogs home and taking care of things myself. It is like they say.. "Never mind the dog, beware of owner!!" You can't say a thing about the owners temperment because you do not know mwe... all you know ifs that you came onto a post that I had started a long while back, bumped it up and completely insulted everythign that the Pitbull stands for. I have been working hard to save the breed from people such as yourself, because the wonderful breed would not exist if we left it up to people like you. You do not have any personal experience with the dogs yet you just discriminate and base your opinion on the voice of others.. You can't hate all dogs for what one does. Pitbull's are very strong minded dogs and there are too many irresponsible [EDIT]**** head owners out there that own them.. and then there are wonderful dogs out there that are GREAT that have [EDIT]**** head neighbors (like you!!). I am hglad I do not have children either, however, my neice and nephew stayed with me all summer long, they have been here for over two months so far. My Pitties love them.. my old Pitties loved children.. I have never met a Pitbull that doesn't like children. It is just a matter of how irresponsible and nieve the owner is. The Pitbull's bite because of the owners mistakes... All those dogs out there that are biting, if they do not know what kind of dog it is.. they blame PItbull's. It is pathetic adn in my opinion, people against something that are labelling something with no hands-on, face-to-face personal experience.. they don't even deserve to be able to fill the spavce that your writing has filled. [*EDITED by moderator, please refrain from name calling] I used COMPARISIONS before.. but now.. I call the names.. Go somewhere else and share your opinion because as far as I am concerned and I am sure many people who read your [EDIT]****** would agree.. your opinions mean [EDIT]**** and you are not exactly top on the invitation list to the forum.. Jas hun-- thank you for helping me out.. and thanks for having patience (I lost mine!!) It was helpfull.. Sage-o and Jekky kisses for you.. and a great big hug from mama!! Thanks all who undrstand and I apologize for the rude and innappropriate behavior and language I used in these last few posts.. It just really bothers me!!! Love and peace-- Angie and the Fur Babies

[This message has been edited by Jas (edited 09-03-2003).]

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jeminn
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Posts: 52
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Registered: Jul 2003

posted 09-03-2003 07:27 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jeminn   Click Here to Email jeminn     Edit/Delete Message
"Any person breeding Pitbull's at this point in time is a bad breeder in my opinion. There are too many PIttie's out there in shelters being put down each day to just be breeding and adding more to society. We need to get the crack heads and druggies and amateurs dogs away and start getting more strict on Pitbull ownership."
THANK YOU MAINE PITBULL- I couldn't agree more with this statement. I am not the first or the last to challenge people on this issue. Good luck with your animals-

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goob
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Posts: 186
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Registered: Mar 2003

posted 09-03-2003 03:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for goob     Edit/Delete Message
I don't agree with censoring anti-pit bull posters from the board... they do represent the opinions of a part of the real population, and bring up a lot of issues that should be addressed. That's just me though...

quote:
Like everyone who owns this breed says, the first thing you need to know is to never leave them alone with each other, with any kind of other pet, a child etc. This breed is definetelyl NOT man's best friend. I have worked with Dobies, Rotts and German Shepherds for protection and obedience training for many years.

This is true for ALL large, powerful breeds (actually, the part about leaving dogs alone with children is true for all breeds, large, small, or otherwise). I've heard/read tales (even seen a few "aftermaths" at the local vet clinic) of dogs getting into fights while unattended, and either killing or seriously injuring one of their "pack members"... one I recall from a couple years ago was a herding breed that was KILLED by the owners' other 2 dogs (also herding breeds) while they were out for a few hours. Dog on dog (or dog on human) attacks aren't something that are specific to any one breed... you should know that, given that you've worked with other high drive breeds. Dog aggression is NOT uncommon in rotties or dobies, nor in most other large protection type breeds, and because of their size, they're going to do a lot of damage if they get into a fight with a smaller dog.

quote:
Were talking about a bloody death here, and you are defending that the animal was only doing what it comes naturally? Why own a dog that is capable of such brutality?

Human aggression doesn't "come naturally" to normal pit bulls... dog/animal aggression often does. Of course, many other breeds are noted for their aggression to other animals... many can be quite brutal. Most terriers, for example, will fight with other dogs, and would drag down a cat or other small animal given half a chance. How about greyhounds... their history notes that they've been used in the past to catch and drag down large game animals... sounds pretty brutal to me. There are many other breeds that have (at least at some point) been used for some type of "brutal" purpose.

quote:
We occassionally got a pitbull in for boarding, they were not used for protection training because of their unpredicibility and untrustworthiness.

Pit bulls are NOT a breed that is normally suitable for protection work... not because they're "unpredictable", but because they've been bred for centuries to NOT bite people, and the training process of trying to undo that base characteristic often creates a screwed up dog. Most pit bulls are very submissive to people, and the often harsh training methods used in protection training can also have bad effects on their temperament.

quote:
Recently a news report told of a woman who left her child in a swing at home, stepped out on the porch and when she came inside, her pitbull had mauled and killed her 2 year old daughter.

Actually, the child was two WEEKS old, and there were conflicting reports on that incident... several reports quoted the parents saying that the parents had came in to find the baby, cold and blue on the floor, but NOT mauled.

I've experienced the results of a dog related death firsthand... my 3 month old cousin died in the fall of 1999, when my aunt and her BF left him napping in his swing with a baby monitor beside him while they went to watch tv in the next room. They never even thought to put their two lazy, old dogs away before going in there, after all, it was right next to the living room. They ended up falling asleep for a couple hours, and when they woke up, found his swing knocked over, him on the floor, dead. The dogs (including the younger one who was crated at the time) were taken by AC, and the older two later euthanized (the younger spends most of her time at our house now). The autopsy revealed that he had died from a broken skull from hitting his head on the floor when his swing fell, though he did have some scratches and a few puncture wounds. It was determined that what had most likely happened was that the chow had been napping by/under his swing (which she often did), and when she got up to walk away, got caught under it, then panicked (she'd always been nervous about things on her back, etc) and knocked the swing over trying to get away. Then afterwards, the dogs were likely investigating this new "thing" on the floor, and inflicted the scratches and bites (they also said they thought most of the bites were from the dachshund). This all happened in our basement apartment, which my aunt and her BF were renting so they could be close to the family for help with watching the baby.

The media, of course, dove all over the story, and we dealt with being barraged by reporters anytime we stepped outside for the next week. They came to my SCHOOL trying to find me to "interview" me... and went around harassing the neighbors, hoping to dig up juicy tales of abuse or neglect. As if all that wasn't bad enough, they couldn't even get the facts of the story right... they got the baby's name/age wrong on more than one occasion, and gave numerous versions of the story, most of which were innaccurate. They also speculated on the fact that we had other dogs, and I'm sure that had they found out that there was also a "pit bull" in the house, there would have been speculation as to whether or not she had been involved as well... nevermind the fact that she was on a completely different floor of the house, sleeping in my bed beside me when it happened.

It was a HORRIBLE experience, one that could have been prevented had they known the dangers, but also one that goes to show that things like that can happen with ANY breed of dog. (And that the media can't be counted on to report facts...)

I do realize that there is a problem with dogs (of all breeds) biting people, and agree that something needs to be done about it, but I do NOT think that banning breeds or types is going to solve the problem. The irresponsible owners who allow their dogs to run loose and get into trouble, or those who own vicious dogs as status symbols aren't going to care that there's a law that says they can't own pit bulls. Or maybe they'll just dump off the pit bull and find another dog (of a different breed) to use for their dirty work. The ONLY way to control the problem is to put the blame on the owners... ANY dog has the potential to be vicious/dangerous, so if you have a dog, and allow it to bite someone, you should spend time in jail for not being responsible, same as if it were a gun that hurt someone.

There also needs to be an education program put into place to teach children how to act around dogs, dog owners how to responsibly own/care for dogs, and others how to properly interact with/read dogs, so as to better be able to handle situations in which they're confronted by dogs. In addition, people need to be educated on what makes a dog dangerous, how to spot a potentially dangerous dog, and what to do BEFORE the dog hurts someone.

It would also dramatically cut down dog attacks if the current laws reguarding dogs were simply enforced... leash laws would keep dogs from roaming, packing, and attacking people out on the streets... generic dangerous dog laws would control and/or remove vicious/dangerous dogs from society... and licensing laws will be a huge help in identifying problem dogs/owners. Furthermore, until we can enforce these SIMPLE laws, I see no point in wasting money to pass more laws that won't be enforced (and even if they were, BSL is rarely effective in reducing the frequency of dog bites).

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jeminn
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posted 09-03-2003 04:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jeminn   Click Here to Email jeminn     Edit/Delete Message
Goob- you make some very good points and I appreciate your comments. I have a question, and I would like to hear your opinion. I understand how the media can blow pitbull attacks out of porportion,(any dog attacks for that matter) -however if these dogs have not been trained to be human-aggressive, they why do you think they may attack/bite a baby, or child? I am not saying they DO, I am just saying they MIGHT- (because some have- including yours Maine-Pitbull as I recall from an earlier post) and everyone on this board talks about how careful you have to be with a pitbull, around children, other dogs etc. If they are not inherently human-aggressive, do you think that it has to do with the size, or the sounds a young infant and or child makes? I know there are other breeds that have attacked babies and children- so please understand that I am not trying to pick on the pitbull. I am curious what you think about aggressiveness towards babies or children, in general, by ANY dog. Do you think they do not see them as "human" and more as prey or an annoying noise? Jealousy? I am just curious what you think about the noise and size factor concerning baby and children attacks by any dog.

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Jas

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posted 09-03-2003 05:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jas     Edit/Delete Message
As most people know I am all for reasonable opinions and debates but they must be expressed in a tactful & civil manner. However, inappropriate posts with breed bashing, attacking or abusive content will be edited, deleted or the topic will be Closed. These are the rules here at Auspet. There are many other pit bull forums open for heated ugly debates, and I do not want to see pit bull lovers put off and chased away by breed bashing. There will be no need to "censor" or edit any anti-pit bull posts IF they are worded in a reasonable manner -- which can be successfully done. I am asking for people to keep in mind for some people here these dogs their "babies" and loyal companions and word your posts CAREFULLY. Anything education is most welcome.


I am also editing inappropriate language and name calling to comply with the rules here at Auspet. I know we all feel passionate about things dear to us but for future posts please refrain from using inappropriate language.

Regards & thank you
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[This message has been edited by Jas (edited 09-03-2003).]

[This message has been edited by Jas (edited 09-03-2003).]

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Jas

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posted 09-03-2003 06:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jas     Edit/Delete Message
Goob, I am sorry about your little cousin and thank you for your educational and insightful posts under this thread, hopefully your words and experiences will help other learn before passing judgement. You make some excellent suggestions and points about a sensitive and often misconstrued topic.

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the_maine_pitbull
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From:Allagash, Maine USA
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posted 09-03-2003 10:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for the_maine_pitbull   Click Here to Email the_maine_pitbull     Edit/Delete Message
Jas-- I completely agree with the fact that some topics need to be brought up and the arguements need to be had because the difference in each person's opinion, might lead to an understanding . Our differences might change someone's mind who does read the thread and may help in some ways by getting both of our poiunts acrossed, however, sometimes things go too far.
Goob-- I am very sorry about your loss, it is sad to see that sort of thing happen. My heart goes out to you and your family. You are a very smart person, you made all the difference I think with this thread and you couldn't have said it any better... I couldn't agree withyou anymore on the whole deal with making laws.. it will not solve anything.. they need to be stricter on the people not the dogs.. it is not the dogs fault that they turn out how they are.. it is the owners.. The blame and the consequences should be placed on the owner directly. All that happens is they lose their dog... then they get another. Instead of euthanizing one dog , they should take the owner as well.. in the end.. look how many dogs get put down because they aren't taking care of what is actually the problem. We need more open minded people who are ready to give everything thought and considertation based on each individual dog instead of each individual breed... I have a lot of respect for you.. And last but not forgotten, Jeminn... As far as dogs attacking people... it is like Goob said, it is owners not training well. Children need to be educated which again is an irresponsible parents as well as owner.. they need to know they cannot pull the dogs ears or tail and poke it and jump on it or kick it and hit it.. that pisses dogs off, any dog, and caused them to snap when they had enough. They need to understand do not go near dogs when they are eating or sleeping. People need to take more responsibility and understand that they are the responsible person, a dog as well as a child, is not born knowing everything... they both aquire it through training. If you don't have the time, you shouldn't have either child or dog. As far as Bandit (the dog I had) she never bit anyone.. Bandit had clawed my nephew.. Anyhow.. in the reports, she had a malignant tumor in her chest cavity that had spread all over and caused her to have mental problems. I checked the report (went and got it) I let it sit there for over a year before I got the courage to find out what was wrong from lab test results.. It had caused brain swelling "her brain grew too fast for her skull" is what they compaiured it too. That actually doesn't ever happen but it is the same difference in my opinion.. Anyhow.. Pitbull's are NOT human aggressive dogs, like any other breed, they will bite if provoked, scared, ill, or hurt... But a happy, healthy Pitbull will NEVER bite a human. That goes for any dog. It is a simply and straight fact that the people owning Pitbull's need to be more responsible and the law needs to come down harder on the jerks that are mistreating Pitbull's as well as any other dog. I wish you as well as many others to go to the site I will also include with this thread and see the harsh reality of how unfortunate Pitbull's are.. People fighting them and abusing them for absolutely no reason. Back in the 17th and 18th century, Pitbull's were known as "Family dogs" then someone took over and decided that they were strong dogs and started fighting them up against bull's.. they of course were in PIts during these fights and could bring down bulls, so that is how the name "Pitbull" came about. Then they decided to make it more challenging "game" and fought dog up against dog. Originally, the Pitbull was a family dog, slept at the end of a childs bed, sat by the table begging, and had a part in the family. It waw snot a "cheap security system" as some people call it, and wasn't a good way to make a dollar. It was a part of the family, loved and well taken care of. A pitbull really isn't even a good source for half of the things it is used for, that is why so many are in shelters unwanted. People try to make them something that they aren't. So while you are here trying to educate us on why we need to get rid of them,.. you should be out there educating people on how to be more responsible. In here, you waste your words.. in the public you may be able to educate and change even one persons mind on how to be a better owner.. Read up.. help them because the dog they truly are.. help end the abuse and neglect and all the things Pitties go through that is not right.. Fight for the right.. Stand beside us not against us, and help us make the place a better world, because with people trying to make laws and BSL's and all that crap, it is only wasting precious time that you all could be saving dogs in bad situations and putting the people behind bars that desreve to be.. why give the responsible owners a hard time instead of the people ruining the breed?? Never made any sense to me.. but I hope I have changed your mind. Don't sit on your butt discriminating when you can be helping change what is wrong by getting a fight against the people causing the issues we have with dangerous dogs today.
Here is to all-- a link for you all to see.. very graphic pictures.. of abusive cases on Pitbull's.. sad, sad stuff.. hope you can handle it.. brought tears to my eyes.. NOT EASY TO DO!! Here it is.. http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/sadreality.html

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goob
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posted 09-03-2003 10:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for goob     Edit/Delete Message
I understand what you're saying about the discussion, innapropriate posts, etc, Jas, and agree completely. I also appreciate that a variety of opinions are allowed, which is why I was a bit worried about a few of the things I read (though I admit I'd just woke up, and probably wasn't thinking too clearly when I read them ). Thanks for clearing it up.

jeminn...

quote:
if these dogs have not been trained to be human-aggressive, they why do you think they may attack/bite a baby, or child?

I'm no expert, and even if I was, it's hard to draw conclusions without actually seeing something happen, but to name a few things I can think of that might be responsible for these problems...

I think that in many cases where a dog (not addressing pit bulls here, just dogs in general) is not socialized with really young children/babies, they may not realize that they're people, and yes, I do think some of them may even view them as a prey item, horrible as that sounds. After all, they wiggle all around, but don't really move... they spend most of their time just laying, which would enforce to the dog even more just HOW vulnerable they are... they make all sorts of high pitched, prey-type noises. Some dogs seem to know right away that a baby is a baby, a little person, but others seem to take time to get that through their heads, especially if they've never really been part of a family (as many of the dogs that seriously attack people are).

I'm also a firm believer that just as people need to learn to read a dog's body language, dogs also need time to learn to understand OURS. Many common "people moves" are practically insults to dogs... how about when a kid runs up to a dog and throws their arms around their neck? Classic sign of dominance, and if you have a dog that's not submissive, and hasn't been conditioned to understand that it's a "hug", not a challenge, you may have some real problems.

Then you have the things kids/babies DO to dogs... pulling fur, sticking things in ears, etc. For a dog that's not used to that kind of stuff, it can be a big stress, and if they're naturally a nervous/high strung dog, that stress piled on top may push them to act in "improper" ways. Some of the things are even painful, which brings tolerance for pain into the equation.

I think that in some cases, jealousy is a factor... dog's been "baby" from puppyhood, then a "real" baby shows up, and dog is suddenly booted of the furniture, isolated in a kennel, or even outside. In dog/dog situations, that would most likely create a ruckus in the dog part of the household, so I could see it doing the same in some dog/child situations.

Another peeve I have (and potential trouble causer in dog/kids relationships) is people who's dogs obviously have a problem with something their children are doing (maybe rightfully, maybe not), and rather than address the problem, either by having the child not do that or do it differently; or working with the dog on accepting that behavior from the child; they correct the dog for warning the child off. All that does is teach the dog to skip that warning next time... not a good thing IMO. It's NOT acceptable for a dog to growl at kids, but at the same time, be glad the dog ONLY growled, as that means he didn't really want to bite, and was exercising other options instead.

It's possible too that the dogs doing this are just completely unstable, and would be that way no matter what the environment/upbringing/care... it happens in all breeds.

You also have to take into consideration the environment most of these dogs are brought up in... too many pit bull owners get one thinking it will grow up to be a savage monster, and do everything they can to try and make that happen, or at the very least, expect it, and don't do anything to head off small problems before they become big ones. Most pit bulls can cope with even horrible conditions without losing their good temperaments, but the occasional one that doesn't have the rock solid normal APBT temperament will likely crack under this type of treatment/neglect (as most dogs of ANY breed would in this type of scenario), and possibly become a danger to people. Since pit bulls are the breed of choice for irresponsible idiots looking for a dog to make them feel better about themselves... it really doesn't take a high percentage of unstable pit bulls to lead to a good number of problems, if that makes sense. I'd say that maybe one in 800 "pit bulls" (in quotes, because this is counting the generic BYB bred pit bulls, most of which are unpapered, and assumed to be purebred APBTs) is naturally unstable in some way, and without good treatment and careful socialization, may end up with serious temperament problem later in life. While this number is much lower than what some breeds likely are, because of the sheer numbers of pit bulls out in the world, it's just as bad a problem as those breeds more likely to be unstable, but less sommon among the irresponsible owners (not sure if that whole explanation made much sense...?).

quote:
everyone on this board talks about how careful you have to be with a pitbull, around children, other dogs etc.

I feel that people need to be careful with ANY dog around children, as dogs are dogs (ie: they're not people, and aren't always going to do what we want, or what we think they will, no matter how well trained or behaved) things don't always go the way you expect, and it's not worth the risk when it's so easy to take precautions like keeping dog/child seperate when unsupervised.

That said, we have five dogs... I'd trust the two pit bulls with young children/babies before any of the others (all of which are nice dogs, themselves, and have done fine around the young children they've been around). The older of the two was raised with my nephews, and has tolerated FAR more than most dogs (and people ) would. The younger has only recently had the chance to be around any young children/babies, but has also been great with them... it's amazing to see this hyper, busybody dog gently walk up to a small child, her every move seemingly made so as not to jostle or upset them. Even so, I wouldn't leave either alone with a small child/baby, just not worth the chance of something going wrong, no matter how unlikely...

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goob
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posted 09-03-2003 11:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for goob     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
Back in the 17th and 18th century, Pitbull's were known as "Family dogs" then someone took over and decided that they were strong dogs and started fighting them up against bull's.. they of course were in PIts during these fights and could bring down bulls, so that is how the name "Pitbull" came about. Then they decided to make it more challenging "game" and fought dog up against dog.

That's not entirely accurate... since the beginning of the "pit bull" (as in all "pit bull type" dogs and their predecessors(sp?), not just APBTs, or Staffies), they have been used for bull baiting, fighting, and other bloodsports. They were "family dogs" while they were also "canine gladiators"... it was common for a dog to be at a fighting match or similar one night, then sleep in the childrens' bed the next. Their greatness as a family dog was due mostly to the heavy culling of human aggressive dogs done by people who used them in bloodsports, because they didn't want to be dealing with aggressive dogs. That's not to say that you should go out and put your dog up against a bull or another dog to keep them "true to the breed", but that's WHY the breed(s) is what it is today.

And (one more thing, then I'm done )dog fighting didn't overtake bull baiting because they wanted to challenge the dogs more... it's just that after bloodsports were outlawed, it was much easier to smuggle a few dogs into a secluded building for fights than it was to hide a bull on a chain with several dogs set on it at once. That's also supposedly why smaller dogs were preferred... they were easier to fit under coats, etc to sneak them into matches without raising suspicion.

I'm also including a link I forgot in my last post, this is (IMO) a great program, and the site has a lot of good info on it: http://www.safekidssafedogs.com/

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the_maine_pitbull
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From:Allagash, Maine USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted 09-03-2003 11:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for the_maine_pitbull   Click Here to Email the_maine_pitbull     Edit/Delete Message
Ahhh.. come on Goob--- bulls are easy to hide under your coat.. what are you talking about.. ??? lol.. Sorry for the mistake... just going by my research..

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jeminn
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posted 09-04-2003 09:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jeminn   Click Here to Email jeminn     Edit/Delete Message
Goob- I completely agree with you about teaching children how to behave around animals- all animals- dogs, cats, lizards, snakes, birds, wildlife etc. My question was really about dogs and "infants" or a very young child (under one or two years old) who is not mastered or learned these skills of learning how to respond, react or approach animals, but I certainly understand and agree with your comments. I have 4 children of my own (age 12 and under) 3 dogs, 3 cats, and a Bearded Dragon. In our household, our children have always respected the animals dispositions and have learned from as early as they could "see, touch, hear, speak, feel and walk" how to treat animlas, both domestic and in the wild. Our animals have also learned how to respect, respond and treat children, adults, strangers or not. There is a balance there of responsibility, and respect, which I know you understand.
You answered my questions though, and I appreciated hearing your thoughts. I have gotten off track here on this tread to some degree, and realize there are other forums to which my interests, questions and comments are more appropriate.
Thanks goob, for taking the heat out of this thread, and giving me a better understanding of where pitbull owners are coming from. Your intellect and non-confrontational approach to pitbull questions and "offending" opinions is what a forum like this needs. Good luck to the GOOD owners out there who are trying to make a difference for this breed.

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