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Posted by Topic subject:   Another Pit attack
goob
unregistered
posted 02-25-2003 12:46 PM           Edit/Delete Message
My point is that it's not always environment that makes a dog "aggressive". I'm also not referring to puppies showing aggression, but to dogs that develop aggression as they mature because it's part of their inborn temperment. I've never heard of a pit bull puppy snapping at a kid, have you? No one wants to admit that "their" breed is in trouble, but if people keep indiscriminately breeding dogs without care as to their/their ancestors' temperments, pit bulls will be in a much worse situation in a few years than they are now. There will be more pit bull attacks because there will be more unstable pit bulls getting to owners who think they can "fix" them or who want to use that faulty temperment for bad purposes. I don't know of any links to back up what I'm saying, but if you volunteer at any shelter in a big city (or talk to anyone who's been doing rescue in one for a while), you'll see what I'm referring to. You will see stable pit bulls who have been tortured for their entire life, yet still love people. You will also see one or two pit bulls who have been pampered their entire lives, but didn't have the nerves to handle a child running over to give them a hug. It may take a while before you see one of these dogs, as they're not commonplace, nor typical of the breed, but they do "happen", and improper handling of them is one of the reasons the breed is in so much trouble.

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PITBULL_PRINCESS1979
Member

Posts: 414
From:LOUISIANA,USA
Registered: Dec 2002

posted 02-25-2003 02:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for PITBULL_PRINCESS1979     Edit/Delete Message
Goob,
I will be the first one to tell you that my "breed' is in alot of trouble..Backyard breeders are the cause of this..I understand what you are saying now..To answer your question..No,I have never seen a pitbull puppy snap at a kid..I do have something to say about what you are calling unstable..and please correct me if I am not understanding you correctly..Like the example you gave about a pitbull being pamper but not having the nervse for a child to run up and give them a hug.I do not call this unstable..The dog is has special needs.It should be in a home where there are no children.The owner should be aware of this problem and be responsible and take the proper precautions.
To make my point..You could take that very same dog,breed it and its puppies should be what you call stable.There are no garentees with reprodution.That is in humans as well as animals.
I breed pitbulls for the pure joy it gives me to know that I had a hand in making this beautiful animal.I know when a puppy leaves my house that I have done everything I can to insure that it will be the very best dog it can.By that I mean that I am not just throughing to dogs together and hoping for a good outcome.I do research on all my dogs.I talk to all the owners of the dogs on thier pedigree that I can.I want to know what kind of dog they were,what their habbite were,ect.
I do the same to the people that I sell my puppies to.
Like I have said before my goal is to save this breed,to let people see what a true pitbull is all about.

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shmoopie
Member

Posts: 361
From:Vancouver, BC
Registered: Jan 2003

posted 02-25-2003 02:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for shmoopie   Click Here to Email shmoopie     Edit/Delete Message
Goob,
You are rattling my brain

You insist that a dog can be born mean towards humans?
Specifically an APBT?
Where are your facts please?

I will use my dog as an example here:

I picked Duke out the day he was born. I would see him everyday until I brought him home. During my visits I would watch him interact with the other puppies. During this time Duke was very un stable. He would start fights with every other dog in the litter. He bit open one of the puppies lips. I did not know as much about this topic then as I do now, but paid very close attention as I had listened to the media about this breed and was very determined to prove them wrong.
When I brought Duke home he was a reckless...I'm gona do what I want...kinda dog. He was stuborn (it took 2 months of trying to teach him outside is where you go to the washroom)He is highly intelligent...somepeople would see this as stupid...but I understand it is determination to get what he wants.
Anyways, he didn't do well with the other puppies while he was in the litter, but when I brought him home and started taking him everywhere he soon learned what was okay and what was not. He was awsome with other dogs until he was bit while trying to be playful with a little dog who thought it was boss.
Ever since that encounter he has a different view of other dogs. To me this is un acceptable. Through "tough love" and proper training I have taken his instinct to "kill" the other dog and he respects what I want him to do. So even though he was born a fighter I changed that about him. If I wanted him to be a fighting dog, then he would be No. 1 I'm damn sure of it, but because I do not acept it...he does not behave that way anymore.
My training and managment have come along so nicley that this weekend Duke had two buddies over to play. One was his old pal "Kira" who just loves him as does he to her. Also, we had over our friend who has just gotten a Pug Puppy. This puppy would lunge and grab his face, but because of all my efforts with Duke, he just sat up shook it off and laid back down for more

My point here is that Duke is genetically born to be a dog fighter, but through proper training and love I have changed him. I believe that any dog can be what we want it to be. This just takes effort.

I understand what you are saying about genetics and aggression or fear aggression. But I do not believe any puppy is born fear aggressive. Fear aggression is learned.

[This message has been edited by shmoopie (edited 02-25-2003).]

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Albert
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Posts: 143
From:Sydney
Registered: Oct 2002

posted 02-25-2003 09:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Albert     Edit/Delete Message
Here we go starting a fight again.

Heres a link to intresting resources re: "Fear aggression in dogs" so we can all do some reading and learn before starting to bash each other.

P.S.
genetics comes as one of the causes on many online resources..

Peace
Albert

[This message has been edited by Albert (edited 02-25-2003).]

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shmoopie
Member

Posts: 361
From:Vancouver, BC
Registered: Jan 2003

posted 02-26-2003 03:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for shmoopie   Click Here to Email shmoopie     Edit/Delete Message
Albert - Thank you for that!

Almost exactly as Pit Princess and I were saying

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PITBULL_PRINCESS1979
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Posts: 414
From:LOUISIANA,USA
Registered: Dec 2002

posted 02-26-2003 05:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for PITBULL_PRINCESS1979     Edit/Delete Message
Albert,
Thank you for the article.It was very good,even though I do not agree with some of the things he said.I learned a few new things.Thank you again.

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goob
unregistered
posted 03-01-2003 03:20 PM           Edit/Delete Message
Shmoopie, A dog can be born with a genetic predisposition to be highly defensive or highly prey driven, or highly dominant, which can lead to a dog biting someone, which I guess would be considered "mean". And your dog wasn't "unstable" as a puppy, he was acting like a normal puppy. Normal puppies practice being dogs, and this includes "play fighting". They learn bite inhibition, and how far they can go with other dogs before they get "put in their place". Sometimes (especially with bull breeds) this involves a lot of growling, biting, and other behaviors that people might see as aggressive, but it doesn't mean that it is. And if he was "awesome" with other dogs after you had socialized him after that (until he was attacked) then it's highly unlikely that he actually was fighting with ther other pups. It's also common for dogs to become suspicious of other dogs after they've been atacked by one... the "I'll get you before you get me" attitude. And you can't EVER "take an instinct out" of a dog... it's inborn and the best that you can do is learn how to make them control it. That sounds like what you've done with him. There's nothing wrong with that, but you have NOT changed his instinct to kill other dogs IF it was "in" his genetic make-up. It very well may not be, or it may be, and you've simply taught him to control himself. Also, about the visit fro mthe other dogs, many dog aggressive dogs can co-exist with and even like other dogs that they've been properly introduced to, as long as those dogs don't challenge them or threaten them. It doesn't mean that they will always tolerate every dog that they meet. What you said about making him a fighting dog is also not entirely true, as being aggressive towards other dogs has nothing to do with a dog being a fighter. Many fighting dogs (even those who have aready been fought) can co-exist with other dogs with no problems, unless they feel that they are challenged. They will live peacefully with females, pups, even subordinate males. Of course, not all are like that, but some are. One more thing, being dog aggressive does not make a pit bull (or any bull breed) unstable, it's considered an acceptable trait in the breed. Being human aggressive (ie: growling, biting, snapping, snarling, etc without there being a direct and real threat upon them or "their people") does.

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Barbie
unregistered
posted 03-02-2003 03:47 PM           Edit/Delete Message
Weird how they blame a person on raising their pits to be aggressive. I own 3 pits, 2 male & 1 female. I also own 2 toy poodles, & 1 pekingese. All of them get along, I've raised them all in the same way, However 1 of the male pits is very mean around people he doesn't know. And he has even bit 2 people already. I know I didn't train him to attack, but since he was a puppy, he's been very shy around other people. Now he has to remain tied up, away from reach of people. I would't want him to attack anyone else, or to have him put to sleep. And I wouldn't want to get blamed for raising him to attack. Cause I know they would say that, Even though all I've ever done is love him.
But I don't think people should be the blame of their dogs actions, Unless it is something done on purpose. Our pets have a mind of their own. And sometimes we really don't know how they think.

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PITBULL_PRINCESS1979
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Posts: 414
From:LOUISIANA,USA
Registered: Dec 2002

posted 03-03-2003 11:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for PITBULL_PRINCESS1979     Edit/Delete Message
i am sorry Barbie,but I have to disagree with you.You may not have taught him to attack.But something has bond to happen to him sense you have had him to make him this way.

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shmoopie
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Posts: 361
From:Vancouver, BC
Registered: Jan 2003

posted 03-03-2003 01:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for shmoopie   Click Here to Email shmoopie     Edit/Delete Message
Goob,

Thank you for your insite to my dogs behavior problem. I certainly do agree with you on all of your points. Are you currently a trainer or behaviorist because you blew me away with your last post!

Barbie...that is sad that the dog must remain tied up away from people. Have you spoken with anyone about this problem?...would you be interested in learning how to curb that aggression?

[This message has been edited by shmoopie (edited 03-03-2003).]

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PITBULL_PRINCESS1979
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Posts: 414
From:LOUISIANA,USA
Registered: Dec 2002

posted 03-03-2003 02:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for PITBULL_PRINCESS1979     Edit/Delete Message
goob,
I just wanted to complament you on your above post.I agree with alot of your points.I do want to say I am sorry if any of my earlyer posts were rude towards you.I also wanted to say even if I do not agree with some of the things you have said,I do have respect for you.

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goob
unregistered
posted 03-03-2003 10:56 PM           Edit/Delete Message
Barbie, you ARE aware that if someone comes into your yard and he bites them, you're still responsible for his biting them, right? You may not have "made" him that way, but you've chosen to keep him, and it's your responsibility to keep both him and the public safe. What if he snaps his tie-out one day? It's your decision if you want to own a human aggressive pit bull (or any dog), but people (other dog owners, your neighbors, the local government) will have a problem if you're jeopardizing other people's safety by confining him in a way that he COULD escape, or someone COULD walk up to him and get bitten, and it happens. It would be great if you could find a better way to confine him (like a crate in the house, or a kennel run with boards around the sides so people can't stick their hands in if he HAS to be outside), get him evaluated by someone (or several people) who knows the breed, and take their advice, even if it's not what you want to hear. Also, keep in mind that if he bites someone, there's a chance that your other 2 pit bulls could also be impounded, and maybe PTS, especially if you can't prove they weren't involved. And if he hasn't been neutered yet, that is important, because there is absolutely NO need for more possibly human aggressive pit bulls, and accidents can happen, even with the most careful of people.

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goob
unregistered
posted 03-03-2003 11:08 PM           Edit/Delete Message
Thanks pitbull_princess and Shmoopie And I agree, even if we don't feel the same about something, that that doesn't mean that there haven't been valid points made, and gotten everybody thinking. And Shmoopie, I'm not a trainer or behaviorist, but I'd love to do something along those lines once I'm done with school ;D

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shmoopie
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Posts: 361
From:Vancouver, BC
Registered: Jan 2003

posted 03-07-2003 04:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for shmoopie   Click Here to Email shmoopie     Edit/Delete Message
Goob, I bet you'd be great at it! You show great knowledge on this subject and continue to impress me with your cool confidence...good luck!

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jlong
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Posts: 23
From:Clintwood, Va, USA
Registered: Apr 2003

posted 04-13-2003 01:47 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jlong   Click Here to Email jlong     Edit/Delete Message
C-mon people. Wake up.
You all are saying oh its the kids fault, a pitbull would never do this if not prevoked. One of you even said that pitbulls are not aggresive toward people. Well if there not then why is it that you dont hear of all other breeds attacking kids while walking home.

You all need to open your eyes and educat yourself a little more on pits before you go saying they are just as good family pets as any other dogs.

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