posted 12-27-2002 11:05 AM           

So, when some Pit Bull's attack, it is a dog problem, the whole breed is to blame? Get out of it, know what the heck you are talking about.

Actually, some Pit Bulls are most highly dangerous, but it stops there, its those dogs, NOT THE ENTIRE BREED.

This poll suck's, there is no reason to have such poll, it does not make things better.

Belive me, I live in Norway, Pit Bulls have been banned for 12 years now, does it help? NO! To kids have been attacked and killed by dogs here, the dogs where of polar breeds.

The real problem is the laws, ALL aggressive dogs should be illegal, no matter breed.
It is so "Stone-age" like to put a breed name on dangerous dogs, It is a big-city problem.

Pit Bulls are dogs like all other, it is the OWNER who raise his dog, learns right from wrong.

I am shaking my head right now, we have a ban in this idiotic contry, does it help? NO IT SOES NOT.

PUNNISH THE DEED, NOT THE BREED, START THINKING FOR A CHANGE.

posted 12-28-2002 10:53 AM           

It is my fault I did not put the dog down and it is my fault I got a dog with minimum dog knowledge.

Some dogs can how ever be sick and do bite cause of that, this is rare, but it happens.

The real PROBLEM with pitbulls is not the dogs, but the laws, owners and the "big" city.

A responsible owner NEVER puts his dog in a situation where it is forced to bite.

At this date, I currently train my amstaff female within a norwegian rescue organisation, she is to become a certified Search & Rescue dog.

When you get good knowlwdge for theese breeds, you to will understand that it is not the breed who is to blame, it is the deed.

posted 12-28-2002 05:40 PM           

Dachshund Put to Death After Mauling Md. Baby
By Michael Amon
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, December 27, 2002; Page B02
A dachshund that police said dragged a 6-week-old baby from his playpen and mauled him was put to death yesterday.
The boy suffered severe injuries to his feet, legs and head, and at one point upon reaching Children's Hospital in Washington, he stopped breathing and had to be resuscitated, police said.
Andrew was in critical condition for several days, but his condition is now fair, a hospital spokesman said.
Andrew may have trouble walking when he gets older.
The actions of the black and brown purebred dachshund -- and their consequences -- have had lovers of the breed talking all week. On dachshundzone.com, a message board was filled with speculation about what motivated the dog.
Though dachshund attacks are extremely rare -- Polsky could not recall hearing of another one -- the dogs are not considered good pets for small children.
The dachshund was originally bred in Germany to be a hunter of small, burrowing vermin. In 1999, dachshunds were designated "not good" for children in the annual report of the American Kennel Club, but the group rescinded the classification when dachshund lovers denounced the report.
Polsky said small dogs have killed children. Last year, a Pomeranian killed a 6-week-old in Los Angeles while the baby's caretaker was briefly away.
More often than not, the dog mistakes the infant for some sort of prey object," Polsky said. "They hear some high-pitched noise or cry, and the dog attacks the infant."

...so it goes to prove its not any breed of dog it is the individual dogs. As for councils etc banning Pit Bulls etc thats where they start is by banning pit bulls then they start adding the other breeds..

posted 01-02-2003 12:57 PM         

Actaully Robert does know what he is talking about. English is his 2nd or 3rd language so try to understand the point.

I really agree with this one
"A responsible owner NEVER puts his dog in a situation where it is forced to bite."

It is up to the master to know his dogs well. Don't put them in a situation where you know something may erupt. For instance, my dogs are fine with other dogs "IF"
1. They are by themselves, as in not together, 1 at a time, no more than 2 dogs interacting.
2. The other dog is not trying to dominate.
3. There is no toy or stick present.
4. I am there to control and watch my dog playing with the other.

I being a responsible pit bull owner, have to control the situation and know what will trigger my dog into level 2.

As soon as a GSD, rottie, any other bull breed, etc. comes to the park, I LEAVE RIGHT AWAY. I leave, I leave, I leave. I don't want them, like so many of them do, to come over to me because they think their dog is tough/macho. Wouldnt it make sense to yell to me 1st and say " Hey, can our dogs play together?" I'd say no sorry it's probably not a good idea. Instead they just let their dog loose, and hit the ball for it right at us. ACKKKKKKK, I can contol my dogs to heel and come with me. So that what I do. I leave.

I walk at night, it sucks but no one else is out at 1 am.

It's part of the responsibility, dedication and commitment I made to my dogs.

My dogs have fought with others, in all cases it was the other owners neglect to know the situation. Letting a 120lb rottieX come over to my dogs and try to take their ball away, hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm what would one call that? My accident? My fault for playing fetch in the park in broad daylight? I got bit BTW by the rottieX saving it's stupid ass from a beating it would have recieved. Is this a case of the rottieX not knowing it should have came over? or the master not contolling his dog and keeping it by his side or on their side of the park.

BTW, this incident was 5-6 years ago, anything like it has never happened again because I know what to avoid now.

My dogs don't just attack without provocation or just because they are bored, like so many people think. They just defend themselves, and end up making the other dog regret its challenge of dominancy.

I have always broken up every alteracation, because I was there and was alert. Pit owners have to be ALERT at all times when out in public. Thus, just anyone cannot own a pitbull, it is a great responsibility. As I mentioned in an earlier post POS cannot responsibly own a breed like this.

Don't put me or Robert in the same group as the ones that let their dogs run free in the neigbourhood.

I welcome and will answer any questions to the best of my ability

Russ

posted 01-02-2003 04:08 PM         

Chain a dog up in the house backyard or the warehouse, don't play with it, don't take it out for walks, don't introduce it to new dogs and people, don't let it see anyone at all. Hmmmmmmm I wonder if after 3 years of isolation, it could tell if a stranger was trying to be friendly or attack it???

How can anyone be so absurd to blame a dog?

Let your unsocialized untrained dog run free in the suburbs. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, is it possible it could run into a situation where it felt threatened? It was scared? It was being chased by kids throwing rocks?

Just a few thoughts I had while driving home for lunch.

Russ

posted 01-03-2003 03:15 PM         

It seems that alot of what was posted about statistics, gave proof to what I have been saying. I don't need statistics to know what I have to do to be a responsible dog owner. Many statistics are tainted by politics and the media. I do not find them to be the all knowing answer to this debate.

If I did a search for Pomeranian attack and pit bull attack, I wonder which would get more hits. The media JUMPS all over pit bull attacks, even if its a not a pit bull they will call it one so they can get the front page. Americans among others are attracted to violence. It sells. Pit bulls sell, Pom poms don't. Do we need to find statistics on this to find out if my opinion is right?

People are free to say whatever they like in a public forum, however, it does not mean they are correct. Dog bite statistics cannot be used as evidence against the pit bull.

2 dogs were put down today in my city, they deserved to die IMO Link to the news thread

Who knows what laws will evolve from this in my city.

It was irresponsible ownership. PERIOD
All dogs have the equipment to bite. Some do some don't. Some breeds can cause more damage when they decide to bite. Some people are aware of these facts and do things in their life to accomodate the potential threats. "MOST DON'T"
(which would you find to be potentially more dangerous? A hammer or a power nailer? anyone is qualified to use a hammer, less are qualified to use the power nailer, you have to read an operation manual first. For those of you who don't get it. [1.] normal hammer = normal dog [2.] power nailer = pit bull )In owning a pit bull, you have to be more advanced in dog training and obedience. In the right hands, the pit bull can out perform almost any other dog in their fields. Agility, obedience, weightpull, protection, Family dog, the list goes on(Maybe not tracking)

Now I may have to face tougher laws in my area because of someone elses neglegence. What did I do wrong? Did my dogs attack that poor girl? No they most certainly did not. So should my dogs be labelled dangerous because some other dogs behaved in a bad manner. Stereotyping is so stereotypical lol it's a bad human habit but we all do it. It's easy for 99% of the world to gang up on what they don't know about. Actually it's human nature to do that. Because many in this forum have already done that. Voted to ban a breed that they know very very little about and posted their unthought opinions based on little or no knowlwdge of the breed.

This post lost me. Don't know what you meant tybrax. ??
<<"tybrax ROBERT, YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. ALL DOGS BITE.">>

Russ

PS, if you people want to talk trash about the pit, please educate yourself more. There are many people out there who know a helluva lot more than I do about pits, but I know enough to try to help out the pit in this corner of the world.
Learn more before you say things so stupid.

posted 01-03-2003 03:30 PM         

let me repat the same question i once posted
to PitBull Princess.

Ok, so the public don't know much about Pitts. But wouldn't councils have a bunch of professionals ( and I mean dog trainers, vets etc etc) working for them and they are the ones that recommend banning certain breeds. Hence, the wide spread banning that is now taking place slowly but sourly around the world.

Or is it just a world wide conspiracy against pit bulls ?

posted 01-03-2003 04:02 PM         

Plain and simple, the pit is a political scapegoat for all negative dog actions.

<<"But wouldn't councils have a bunch of professionals ( and I mean dog trainers, vets etc etc) working for them and they are the ones that recommend banning certain breeds.">>

You don't know this for sure? Wouldn't they, shouldn't they, couldn't they?

They don't like the breed because it comes from a shady past. It causes the most damage with a single bite. And more POS own them then decent people.

What would a vet know?
Any decent trainer would stand by the truth.

Honestly, you think a politician would hire a Professional dog trainer to tell the truth to the public on his behalf that the pit bull is the best dog out there, when in fact he really wanted the Professional dog trainer to lie and say that pit bulls are bad and untrainable? LOL, please don't be so easily fooled by such basic politics as that.

posted 01-03-2003 04:25 PM         

Ok, heres some more questions.

1) Why Pit Bulls are the most favourite breed with drug dealers street gangs etc.

2) You’re saying the reason for banning is most likely shady politics. What about all them people that were KILLED by pit bulls, not just got bitten but
mauled to death by pit bulls…and a good number of people too. Many cases
only recently. Why doe’s the same shady politics don’t point to other breeds like Shepherds, Dobermans, Rottweilers etc. Why only pit bulls?...is it just the name?

posted 01-03-2003 11:15 PM         

Albert, if you are going to quote me, please do so correctly and do not quote me with what I did not say.

I did not say:

<<"Russ.
Ok, heres some more questions.

1) Why Pit Bulls are the most favourite breed with drug dealers street gangs etc.

2) You’re saying the reason for banning is most likely shady politics. What about all them people that were KILLED by pit bulls, not just got bitten but
mauled to death by pit bulls…and a good number of people too. Many cases
only recently. Why doe’s the same shady politics don’t point to other breeds like Shepherds, Dobermans, Rottweilers etc. Why only pit bulls?...is it just the name?

Russ, I understand your point of view as a pit owner. However...the problem can not
be dissmised by just saying shady politics. There is much more to it then that.">>

Those are Alberts words Princess, not mine.
Also, I never said ban them. I said IMO I think those dogs should die, they are not pit bulls either, they are rottXmastiffs.
Also, it is very hard to read your posts when they are all caps, it seems like you are yelling all the time.

My words are here, you can read it over and over and it will still say the same thing, I dont know how they all got mixed up into "Russ wants pitbulls banned" Can any of you find where I said that? I can't.

Russ

posted 01-03-2003 11:30 PM         

1) Why Pit Bulls are the most favourite breed with drug dealers street gangs etc.
<<**I think you know the answer, I know it too.**>>
2) You’re saying the reason for banning is most likely shady politics.<<**I never said shady politics, I said shady past**>> What about all them people that were KILLED by pit bulls<<**Please tell/show me where these people were killed, I am not aware of it as I don't browse the internet looking for these articles**>>, not just got bitten but
mauled to death by pit bulls…and a good number of people too. Many cases
only recently. Why doe’s the same shady politics don’t point to other breeds like Shepherds, Dobermans, Rottweilers etc. Why only pit bulls?...is it just the name? <<**Do you understand what scapegoat means? It is not scapegoat"S". It is single not plural.**>>
<<**All the other dogs you mention had their turn. Now it is pit bulls, but I am afraid it will be here to stay because the dog is the Great white of dogs**>>
**Princess, this is a statement, not a bashing of the dog**

Russ, I understand your point of view as a pit owner. However...the problem can not
be dissmised by just saying shady politics.<<**I never said shady politics**>> There is much more to it then that.

posted 01-04-2003 01:24 AM           

Russ did you forget you posted that?

Another quote from you same post:
Russ: Most of the other posts in this thread are pure BS, based on their no facts opinion only.

If this is the case and we are so full of BS why do you want to share you FULL FACT OPINIONS WITH US? Please share with us where you get your facts if you dont mind, secondly I cannot see anywhere that albert misquoted you, can you please let me know where that is?

posted 01-04-2003 03:27 AM         

Now I’m really quoting you:
<< Honestly, you think a politician would hire a Professional dog trainer to tell the truth to the public on his
behalf that the pit bull is the best dog out there, when in fact he really wanted the Professional dog trainer to lie
and say that pit bulls are bad and untrainable? LOL, please don't be so easily fooled by such basic politics as that.>>

1)You did not say shady politics but the above statement sure sounds like shady politics to any half brain and his dog.

2)As for your previous statements about some of us here having BS none factual opinions well check out this link.
KILLER PIT BULLS RIP GRANNY TO SHREDS – new York post, Dec 11 2002

Read the article (hope it is still there – might have been archived by now) heres some more BS for you to digest...

Let me guess you are probably going to say that they were not pitbulls and that the media is just picking on the breed and other REAL BS stuff like that . Funny to hear the same mantra being repeated by pit bull owners....lucky we have higher Posted byities to REALLY analyse these issues and pass the appropriate legislation BASED ON FACTS.

Lets all close our eyes and the problem will just go away...pits will continue KILLING people....and we all live happily ever after.

posted 01-04-2003 03:53 AM         

1st of all the quote that you are trying to pin on me was a snip from someone else that I quoted. If you care to take the time to find it, please do, because I never ever said ban pitbulls.

Now it would seem some people are taking this personally.

This is a quote by the way ---><<"If this is the case and we are so full of BS why do you want to share you FULL FACT OPINIONS WITH US? Please share with us where you get your facts if you dont mind, secondly I cannot see anywhere that albert misquoted you, can you please let me know where that is?">>

I get my facts from my experience with this breed. I want to share because I care about the breed, the more you know about this breed the more value/truth your opinions will have.

Albert knows where he misquoted me.
Now thats better Albert, a proper snip and quote.
All politics are by the book right, all decisions made by politicians are the right ones that make our society better. All politicians do it for the community and not for their own pocket books. All politicians keep all their promises that they say and make during their campaign election. No politicians are ever wrong. They are above the law, they make the laws. They can make it legal for 14 year old females to have sex with 55 year old men, they can make it legal for people to shoot heroin as long as they are using clean needles and in a safe shooting house, they can make cigarettes ok to smoke as long as they get 95% tax rake from it. They can do what ever they feel. If it gets them votes or makes them money. Just because the law backs it up doesn't mean it is right.

I said BS before this thread BTW so your timing is a bit off. I am not going to search through to find when and where it is but you know it to be true.

People kill and hurt more. Dogs don't do it for greed, pleasure or lust.
It's a matter of wrong place, wrong time, it's up to the owner of the dog to adjust so that these time frames become minimized or non existant.

Thats my point and has been always. Master neglegence. Not Evil dog.

Heres a quote from Doc, in this thread too <<""its absurb to blame the dog"<-(thats my quote)(this is docs)-> well in some cases that might be true if the owner isnt being responsible.

Peace out,

posted 01-04-2003 04:07 AM         

The two dogs that attacked my puppy were very "sweet" dogs- all of our friends were in complete shock when they found out- It's not just about how they are raised- these dogs were raised well, he has never hit them, always gave them plenty of attention, exercise, food, water, etc- These are just dogs bred for fighting, it is in their genes. This might just be rumor, but one of the things I have since heard is that part of the reason that they attack is that they are bred in such a way that their brains are bigger than their skulls, putting pressure on their brains and causing paranoia which leads to the attacking.
As for why people get pitbulls, I think it is just lack of education- I had no idea that they could turn like this until it happened and I started researching it, I, like my friend who owns them, thought that with a proper home, loving care, and training the dogs would be great dogs- I believe that he got both of them from the shelter when they were small puppies- I know they were not from a breeder-
Unfortunately it is not true that loving owners can make the dog a good dog, I agree that there should be a ban on breeding these dogs.
[This message has been edited by Rott_Lover (edited 12-16-2002).]">>

posted 01-04-2003 04:24 AM         

The conspiracy theory.

Russ, democracy is like that. Things are being done based on public opinions
(majority of public opinions anyway). If something is being done in a certain way
it is because most voters want it done this way. If a politician is pushing a certain agenda it is because the voters want it pushed etc.

Yes, greed doe’s play a roll in many cases. BUT democracy is like that and it is a proven system that delivers results. Hence, the west when compared to other
non democratic regimes.

Politics has nothing to do with the fact that pit bulls are like sharks out of the water and continue to hit the top chart, listed as a dangerous breed on many council list, ACROSS THE WORLD.

posted 01-04-2003 09:32 PM         

You can continue to be led like a blind sheep, I don't care.

But the amount of scandals that pop up every day and the amount of politicians that resign due to criminal activities, continues to grow.

Money, Power & Politicians corrupt the world.

It is evidence of my statements.

So, back to pits if you don't mind.

Please point out anything I have said that you disagree with, on pits.

I will try to explain in my words, why I believe what I have stated to be tried, tested and true.

posted 01-31-2003 12:42 PM            

Russ...I am backing you up 100%

I own a APBT who hates other dogs. I did all the socialization possible when he was a puppy. I took him every where (still do) and he was great around other dogs until he was attacked. Now any dog that looks at him he wants to kill (training has helped me manage this problem very effectivley). I have been through all kinds of training and continue to read as much as possible on dog aggression. It truly is fasinating and Russ is absolutley correct in the things he said.

I do not know everything, just like the rest of you do not know everything about a APBT. The history of the blood line plays a great role in the type of personality and "problems" your dog will have. One of the best things you can do is research the breed before you commit yourself to it. For example, I would never own a Jack Russell Terrier because they are very hyper and terriers, in general, are know for aggression problems. What is a APBT = American Pit Bull Terrier...thats right Terrier.....dog aggression is definatley a part of their blood line...that is, after all what they were created for...wether it be to catch the rats or to bull bait or to fight other dogs...aggression is what man put in them.

Also, one of you point out in another post that a dog that shows aggression should not be destroyed....well then all the things Russ said were right. understand your dog, understand it's fears and what makes it bite and prevent those situatiosn from happening. It is as simple as that.

One thing that I have noticed is that for defending this breed you guys are comming accross way too aggressivley and not representing the breed very well. Show respect to other and you will recieve the same.

Cheers

posted 01-31-2003 06:51 PM            

Pit Princess, I'm on your side...please don't be so defensive. You have an opinion that a dog should not be put down because of an aggression issue and I have to say I agree to an extent. Yes aggression issues can be managed, but realize most people don't care and will toss the dog to the next person to take care of the problem. This is where all that political mumbo jumbo comes into play because i believe the owner should be held accountable for every action the dog makes, I don't care what breed it is. However, our government seems to think it's the breed and that killing these labled "dangerous dogs" will magically solve the problem. It will solve the problem until the media starts to pick on another breed...say the precious Golden Retreiever becomes over breed...down the line there are going to be health defects (that is what happens when a breed is over bred...just like our APBT's) Seizure related aggression will happen, but the media will now see $$$ and portray this breed out to be a killer breed until the next victim...they have been doing this for so long. First it was the Doberman, then it was the Roti now it's our APBT's.

I aggree with you that it is wrong to destroy a dog because of a problem that was created by man, but at the same time each situation is different and unique in it's own way and that sort of thing should be determined by a behaviorist or a trainer who specializes in dog aggression. The best we can do here is help people understand the problem and offer suggestions on how to fix em.

Cheers

posted 01-31-2003 10:06 PM         

Bit of an old topic. I thought I’m done discussing it. Had to reply though.

You call it “brain wash”, I call it facts. What I find funny is that it is always
claimed to be ”a media brain wash” when a certain topic doe’s not fit with ones agenda.

So maybe we should blame TV and newspapers and all them people who personally experienced vicious attacks instead.

posted 02-03-2003 02:34 PM            

I think if you had...you would feel differently and that you would understand that a dog is a dog, they all derived from the wolfe. Just because MAN made this dog aggressive towards other animals does not mean it was created to be aggressive to humans. Any dog that is aggressive to humans has been made that way. Very simple. Stop blaming the breed and start blaming the owners.

A dog is born innocent...it is man who made it evil.

If you are so interested in facts then you would have discovered that a RAT has more pressure per square in of its mouth than an APBT. FACTS are a bunch of BULL SHIT, the media feeds you what sells.

My suggestion to you is to GO OUT and MEET A APBT....I'd love to show you mine....he's very very friendly with people...why??
because I understand what he needed to be that way...I also understand what he would have needed to be aggressive towards humans...but to me, that is not acceptable.

posted 02-03-2003 11:19 PM         

No, I have never owned a PB. Saw many though and even had a very close encounter with one when I used to do computer repair house calls.
It was a frightening experience. The dog meant business and I was lucky the owner was around to stop him.

I have no doubt that you love your dogs like many PB owners here. I’m very happy for you and happy to see such dedication and bond between
man and its BEST FRIEND !

Due to your guys posts I did learn quite a bit about the breed and I do listen. However, many of you PB owners did admit and did point to the fact that owning one requires very special attention and caution, unlike other common breeds.

posted 02-04-2003 12:58 PM            

Thanks for noticing the dedication to the breed! I do love my dog as though he is my baby.

I agree that owning this breed requires a lot of knowledge and dedication....but that goes for all breeds. A APBT is very sensitive to it's surroundings and is very intelligent...therefore, this breed requires an intelligent and dog educated master.

There should be laws that require every dog owner to take a basic obedience class...EVERY DOG...not just the APBT..but all dogs need proper training and socialization...or else that white fluffy thingie could possibly be more of a threat than my 100lb APBT....all depends on the amount of time dedicated to creating an obedient/socialized dog.

posted 02-04-2003 08:22 PM         

That small white fluffy thing will leave a few scratch marks on your ankles, at best

I’m sure you’d agree that there is a small difference as you do come across as an intelligent person too

posted 02-05-2003 01:40 AM         

I like your sarcasm but I think the main point still eludes you. Blame them for what?

Thousands of people are dying every day in 3rd world countries. I would rather see Front page headlines about this so it could influence more people to help those that really need it. Rather than Bucs beat the Raiders or Gold dropped $10.
Media, ROTFLMFAO
Brainwashed........yes

Why doesn't the media publish articles about responsible pitbull owners.
How they belong to search and rescue teams, bomb squad teams and are retirement home visitor pets.

Sad to say, but alot of people in the states are born brainwashed. Born to pay taxes. Only some of the intelligent ones see past this, they hire a good accountant and play the game. The other 75% just get in line to send in the checks. Or get their wages garnisheed by the IRS.

LOL
Conspiracy theory.

I call it American culture influenced by censored controlled mass media.

George Monkey speaking
"Let's go start a war with some other country that we don't control because they have weapons I think they may use against us"

Is N Korea next? Nope, because they are backed by China and there is nothing in N Korea that the USA wants, I wonder if N Korea would be a huge bullseye target if there was a gold or diamond mine or any other type of resource that has a massive $$ value.

In closing, the topic of pitbulls and the media will be a forever uphill battle for the breed. The scales are uneven, it would be a bad political decision for any politician to side with pitbulls.

If it was fair and open to an honest debate, things would be different and this thread would never have been created.

The media can destroy or glorify anyone or anything it so chooses.

Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.........
Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa......
Baaaaaaaaaaaaa...

Not in the herd like the rest of the sheep

posted 02-05-2003 09:03 AM         

Yes OK we're convinced now.

posted 02-05-2003 09:47 AM         

Alwayes sounds better when coming from you !.
You have every right to disagree with me and i support you 100% on that.

posted 02-05-2003 06:18 PM         

Most people laugh at the concepts though. Most of the under 23 beer drinking smokers go for it though. But if you can't figure out that smoking will kill you, well I guess you are not that intelligent.

The media does cover little babies killed by dogs, that should be front page news, at least it is up here in the FAR FAR North where it's all ice and trees.

But down in the USA, football and baseball are far more important. It's a #1 priority for millions down in the USA

Also, it is an ongoing topic, not an old one, Doc, just cover your eyes and it will all go away ok. Trust me on this one.

Oh, I should word this better, the media brainwashes the weak ones. Not everyone, just the ones that fall for it. I am not saying that Doc or Albert are brainwashed, I am just replying to ignorant comments/opinions. Not the recent ones but the old ones from when this thread 1st started. I still haven't seen anything from either to demonstrate that they understand what the whole point was. They both just left and said I give up.

Russ
PS I am not intending for anyone here to think I am calling them sheep. It's the majority of the USA I am refering to. If you are in majority, well, I guess you are a sheep, if not, the comment does not apply to you.

I add this after it was posted.
I will not refer to it as brainwashing anymore, I will refer to it as negative influence.