posted 11-21-2003 06:43 AM         

This morning, the first thing I did with Nala after she went potty was slap the training collar and leash on her and put her in a sit-stay. I set the timer for 3 minutes and backed to the end of the leash, walked around her, sat on the floor, sat on the couch, rolled a ball by her, etc. She stayed for the 3 minutes (she laid down halfway through, but that's fine with me - she's not a show dog).

So then I fed her breakfast and let her play for a while. Then we did the stay again. She had a few problems but I put her back, restarted the timer, and she finally made it.

Then I was getting hungry. We generally don't bring food into that room because she goes berserk trying to get some. But if you eat in the kitchen, even standing at the gate, she hurls herself at the gate or goes on the couch to get you to come back in to get her off. Giving her a greenie or bone to occupy her while you eat helps, but this morning I said, "Enough!" I will not be a captive to the dog.

So I brought a bowl of (dry) cereal into the family room and sat down to eat it. She went berserk. Totally out of control.

She was jumping at the bowl, nipping at me, biting my legs, leaping onto the couch. I put her leash on, but she grabbed it and chewed it and I couldn't make her stop. I finally took the leash off.

I grabbed her collar and sat her down and waited for her to be calm. I let go, and she was right back at it. I had to keep putting the bowl down and telling her NO BITE and holding her mouth shut. I had to move her head to make her look at me, because she KNOWS when she is misbehaving and refuses to look me in the eye.

We did this dance until I managed to finish the cereal. No matter how much she jumped and nipped, I would grab her, put her in a sit or a down, wait until she seemed calm, give her an appropriate toy to chew on, and go back to my cereal. Repeat 1.5 seconds later.

Is that what I should be doing? I even did a sort of modified alpha roll once. I was told months ago that I shouldn't roll her - that rolling a dominant dog makes them more aggressive, not less. But I am not so sure she is a dominant dog. I think she is a stubborn dog, and I think she is an independent dog. But she is very quick to lie down and show you her tummy under the right circumstances. So I put her on her side and held her hip and her head and told her "Settle" and when she was still I praised her and let her up.

Any more suggestions? Just spend the next week doing this every second of the day until she decides she is not going to win?

posted 11-21-2003 08:23 AM         

I don't know how to withdraw attention so that her antics don't work (in her eyes). If I ignore her, she would probably eventually hurt me. Time-outs don't teach her to not bite.

How long does "normal puppy mouthiness" generally last, and will there be an improvement with age, or is this just how she does things? Is the degree of mouthiness she showing "normal"?

When I let go of her muzzle, she does try to bite again. I did finally have a bit of success this morning by NOT moving my hand away. I'd let go, she'd bite, I would hold it shut. We did it over and over and over until she stopped biting.

I am also trying to teach her the words "kisses" so that perhaps I can substitute kisses for biting. It got to the point this morning that I told her "Kisses!" and held my hand in front of her nose, and while she didn't kiss it she didn't bite it either. She pretended she couldn't see it and when it went away she started chewing on her bone.

She's a darn funny dog when you can stop crying long enough to laugh.

posted 11-21-2003 10:38 AM         

My husband is a big proponent of the timeout. He seems to think it is helping. I'm not so sure it helps with the biting, and I think it works better for him than for me.

Is it possible that the dog will react a different way to different people using the same technique? It certainly seems so.

posted 11-21-2003 12:08 PM         

Yes, I tried popping Nala on the nose a few months back, because it works for my husband. For me, it escalated into a showdown which probably looked like I was being attacked had anyone else seen it. I did not do that again. Now I know why she did it - thank you!

I DO put her in her crate for timeouts. It is not her regular crate, but the crate she uses in the car. She knows when she sees it going out to the car that it is a good thing to get in it. And she knows getting put in it while it is sitting in the family room means she is in trouble.

My husband started giving her a timeout whenever he was in the kitchen cooking and she would jump on the couch or steal something to get attention. He walks in without a word, grabs her, and stuffs her in the crate. He sets a timer for 3 minutes. When the timer goes off, he walks back in, shuts it off, lets her out, and goes directly back to the kitchen and continues what he was doing. His philosophy is that her environment is exactly the same before and after acting up, except that she had to spend some time alone in the crate. She did not gain anything by misbehaving.

He seems to think it is working, but when I do it, she spends timeout after timeout after timeout and never stops misbehaving. Maybe she senses that I hate putting her in the crate, whereas I doubt my husband feels anything about it. And I also have a harder time catching her than he does, so that I can put her in the crate.

I have tried tethering her to me when I am cooking in the kitchen. But since she is usually not allowed in that room, she is frantic to get under the table and explore things, and her line isn't long enough. She gets annoyed with not being able to reach anything "fun" and starts to chew on the line or countersurf next to me. What do I do about that?

I have contacted the shelter where we got her for a referral to a trainer experienced with herding dogs in my area. And I found a guy in the next city over that has a farm where he trains dogs and handlers in herding. I e-mailed him describing the situation and asked if he would work with me or refer me to someone who would. I am waiting to hear back from him still.

The shelter behavior person sent me an article on attention-getting behaviors. It hits the nail right on the head by saying that when you ignore the behavior it will get worse before it gets better, and that it takes quite a while to extinguish it. I'm not sure I could ignoring the jumping and the nipping long enough for her to give up even once, let alone repeatedly. The only way I can see to remove attention in that case is the timeout.

I will also try harder to make sure the first attention in the afternoon goes to her - a short play session outside if I don't have time to walk her.

I still wonder, in regards to the cats, if we should leave her crate in the family room during the day while we are at work. I have always been afraid she will hurt herself trying to get to the cats through the wire crate. But maybe seeing them all day and not being able to get to them will make her relax around them? Or maybe she would still chase them just as hard when she is let out.

I also wonder if training her in herding will help her to not chase the cats. They say it's good to give them a job to do. But how can herding a few times a week help with the everyday stuff? How often does Dooley do flyball (including practice)?

Jamiya

posted 11-21-2003 12:33 PM         

Or should she be trained with nothing around to distract her, but once she is trained and I just want her to down-stay to keep her out of trouble, then it's okay to give her a bone?

Is there any reason to make a distinction between sit-stay and down-stay, or should I just skip over the sit and teach her down-stay?

And how the heck do dogs learn this anyway? I mean, I know they do, but if it is true that you can't correct a dog even 2 seconds after it has made a mistake - you have to catch them in the act - then how can they possibly remember that you told them to stay 20 minutes ago?

posted 11-21-2003 12:35 PM         

When My dog used to want to push thru everyone out the front door when we were getting ready to go for a walk. It bugged me alot. So I would tell him to stay. If he did not I would pull him right back in and place him right back. We would go thru this sometimes 4 or 5 times. Now When we are getting ready to go out, I say back it up and he does, he sits and waits until I say come on. Its funny though. Now If I am anywhere and I say back it up he will do it.
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posted 11-21-2003 01:46 PM         

Dooley does flyball practice once a week with the team, we do pattern excersises with him several times a week and he gets to the park or barn with the "chuck-it" probably every other night or every night. Depending on how bad the weather is.

When you put nala in a down stay it should be short, and she should not be allowed to chew... there should be a reward for her at the release. She is too young for long down stays.

Distractions should be added in slowly, you won't be able to clear the room of distractions, keep her down/stay short for now, she is too young for the down/stay while you cook dinner thing. Thats not going to happen at her age. If you will be busy, put her in her kennel with a bone.

Yes. But remember small steps...don't ask too much too soon and celebrate the small achievments. She is smart, her vocabulary and attention to detail will come in time, set her up for that now. Teach her sit and stay