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Posted by Topic subject:   Your thoughts please
Maisey
Member

Posts: 585
From:Portland, Oregon US
Registered: Sep 2003

posted 10-15-2003 09:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Maisey     Edit/Delete Message
In August I posted a little about my Catahoula pup Witt, who will be a year old at the end of November. We had had a couple of incidents of him being aggressive towards people and I was worried enough to search out a trainer who specialized in this. I made an appointment with her and then my child got sick so I cancelled. Then I got sick and with being off work money was short, so I put it off further.
There were three incidents, one involved a woman on the beach. Witt was on leash and supposed to be connected to my truck while I prepared lunch. I was on the other side of the truck from Witt so he couldn't see me. The next thing I know, my husband yelled at me, when I looked up, Witt was running towards a woman, he looked puppy happy bouncing along until he got about 5 feet from her then it turned instantly to total atttack threat. I screamed his name and "COME!", he disengaged and came running back to me. He never touched her and when I explained this to the trainer she thought it may be possible that he thought it was me and was startled when he realized it wasn't.
Incident two was when I brought him out to the driveway with me to get into the truck, usually he runs straight to the truck because he doesn't want to get left behind, I didn't have a leash on him and he bolted across the street charging in attack type mode again at our elderly asian neighbor, thankfully she didn't scream or run, she simply put her hand out in a stop sign, I again yelled "Witt come!" and he immediately stopped and returned to me. I told myself..."you should have had him on a leash, he is very young and doesn't know his own property boundries yet, he was doing what he thought was his job, protecting his property." Then on my 11 year old daughters birthday we had a party at the park, there was also a founders day celebration going on there with many people milling around. On that day there were two things that bothered me. One was a creepy older asian man who kept trying to talk to my children, asked me for cigarettes repeatedly even though I said no repeatedly, and was basically hanging around our table. Witt made it very obvious he didn't like this man, he growled and kept his stare on him at all times. When I walked him away to distract him, he was fine...until the man followed us and tried to reach out and touch Witt. I jerked Witt away and put myself between them, but Witt did snap with alot of viscous sound effects once at the man. The second thing that day was at the picnic table, I had him on his leash and connected to the table leg while I cut the b-day cake. My daughter was sitting on the bench and Witt was near her, her friend stepped between Witt and my daughter and he did a little irritated snip at her leg. She said "he didn't bite me" but I saw the slobber marks on her jeans and I saw his additude when he did it. That was the last straw for me and I called the trainer Monday morning. When I talked to her, she felt that the explanations I had for the first couple of issues were valid and probable, she wondered if perhaps he had issues with asian people stating that they sometimes moved differently and both of the asian people he had gone after were older. She said the incident with my daughter was a gaurding thing. She pointed out that he had hit his teenager time and it seemed to her that he was in gaurd mode when it came to me. She felt like since he has had quite a bit of basic training and a fairly large vocabulary that it would be a fairly easy thing to get through. She was going to evaluate him and said it would probably come down to me asserting that I didn't need gaurding...that I AM the gaurd. Since then, like I said, I had to cancell his appointment. The thing is, there has not been one incident since, he has been perfectly behaved in public, he has not shown any aggression towards anyone. I think since those things happened, my way of handling him has changed a bit, perhaps I have made it clearer to him that I am the gaurd. I'm not sure. My question is...Do I still take him to the trainer for evaluation? Either way I want to continue training with him, I had planned on taking advanced obedience classes with him and still want to do that. Should I just take him to that class(same trainer) and go from there? What do you all think?
Sorry this was so long, but I felt you should know what the incidents involved were.

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puttin510
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Posts: 839
From:,Calif. U.S.A.
Registered: Dec 2002

posted 10-15-2003 12:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for puttin510     Edit/Delete Message
Wow. It certainly sounds to me like he is very protective. With him being so young,he is still learning what his job is and how he is suppoped to act. Considering what you know he is capable of, I would bring him in to be evaluated. If he were to out of the blue do these things again when he is older, it could be much worse. My terrier has barked in a strange way at two people in the three years we have had him. The first, was when he was a little over one. It was at a cross guard. I think it was either the uniform or he sensed something. He was afraid of her. Then about a year ago, an older women walking with the cane. I believe it was the way she walked and the cane. But never wanting to attack and always on leash. He is the equivalant in nature to a lab.

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honeybear
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Posts: 373
From:
Registered: May 2003

posted 10-15-2003 01:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for honeybear     Edit/Delete Message
Maisey, it sounds he is finally learning you are the "top dog" I would still take him to training classes though - if they work on the behavior issues you talk about. Wylie is my mix, a stray and for a few years after we got her any old person (a lot of times with canes approaching her - she would back behind me, and she would growl at kids.

I think with Witt it is a dominant thing and he is trying to protect you and your family and sees certain people as threats.

My husband had a golden and said he was at the beach one time with his little kids and a stranger approached the kids and the golden almost attacked the person and had no history of violence but saw this person as a threat to the kids.

I think the trainer is right on the situation when Witt possibly thought the woman was you and then turns out it wasnt and he is scared and goes into attack mode to protect you or himself.

Honeybear

Honeybear

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jeminn
Member

Posts: 166
From:Colorado, USA
Registered: Jul 2003

posted 10-15-2003 01:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jeminn     Edit/Delete Message
Interesting situation Maisey. You always have good answers in your posts and seem to really understand and know your dog(s). I think it would be worthwhile to continue with an evaluation. Your Witt could have some "weak nerves". Yet he seems intelligent enough to learn how to control them, given proper training and handling during theses situations, which is why an assesment may be worthwhile. When you have a protective breed it is imperative that they have a strong obedient-trained mind, which he seems to have thanks to you. One thing I learned working with shepherds and doing bite work was that some dogs were always aggitated by a certain individual, or type of individual, even though they had no reason to be. These dogs did not go far in protection work because of their "weak nerves", but that did not mean they weren't good dogs or smart dogs. They just didn't have the right tempermant for the job they were being trained for. Often times people think they have a tough dog, when really the opposite is true. I think the most important aspect of working with your problems lies in how you handle your dog right after these incidents occur, and a trainer that specializes in this should be able to point out some things that you might be able to do differently or at least let you know that what you are doing is the correct action to take.
When my Aussie first showed territorial aggression in the backyard with our neighbor girl approaching (who is 6 years old)..I came outside and immediately took my dog to her, calming her and let her sniff the little girl (with a leash and extremely close supervision). I had the girl come to the house where I gave her a handful of treats to give to my dog. If this little girl comes in the house attended with my children, my dog licks her and gives her the butt wiggle she gives the rest of the family, so I attributed this behavior to a territorial thing and decided that I really needed to teach my dog what I wanted from her in the way of protection, because I want that too. I want her to bark when a car drives up the driveway, or when a stranger approaches the front door, but I do not want her barking or acting aggressive towards the neighbor kids coming into the yard. So, I set her up, asking several neighbor kids to come over while we were in the house so I could see and handle her reactions in a safe, trainable way. If Witt acts aggressive towards someone and you correct him without giving him a chance to interact appropriately with the individual you may be reinforcing his weak nerves. I am not suggesting that is what you are doing, just trying to explain what your dog may be thinking based on your reactions to these situations, because that is where you are going to have the most correction power. He obviously looks to you for that, and the basic obedience you have given him will help him get a handle on this. Deciding what you want from your dog is as important as correcting problems, as you well know. I am not sure how you have gone about correcting him when he has behaved this way- maybe you could explain that part a little more. With the guy at the picnic bothering you...I would not correct him for that if it were me because I would want my dog to know when I feel threatened or in danger or do not want someone harrassing me. I would tell my dog to "watch" if I were in that situation, where I would expect my dog to be under control, but watching this man's every move. Take advantage of your dogs smarts and ability to learn more vocabulary. But the lady at the beach..did you take Witt to her and take the opportunity to teach Witt that there is no reason to be threatened by this person? Or the Asian people that he seems weary of..did Witt get the chance to sniff and get close- or was that not possible? Or maybe you did not feel it was a safe situation to put Witt or the other person in by getting closer? A little more info would be helpful in what your reactions were in these situations. Was Witt removed from the scene of these incidents? You might want to find some willing participants who will let you set Witt up for a little training, once you decide how you need to respond, just to reinforce and strengthen his nerves around certain individuals, and different situations. I would seek the trainers advice and observation, just so you aren't missing anything.

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Maisey
Member

Posts: 585
From:Portland, Oregon US
Registered: Sep 2003

posted 10-15-2003 02:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Maisey     Edit/Delete Message
Jeminn,

When Witt charged the elderly asian lady, I recalled him, which he responded to immediately, I then took him in the house and kenneled him, rather than take him with me in the truck as I had started to do. I did not punish or yell at him when he returned to me, simply because I didn't want him to think he was getting in trouble for coming to me. That particular neighbor has lived in that house for 30 years, I have tried several times to say hello and be friendly, she pretends to not speak english. Another neighbor who has lived next door to her for just as long says she does speak perfect english but chooses not to associate with people outside her culture. I did not feel comfortable approaching her.
The lady at the beach...again he recalled immediately, in that situation I did have the sense he had been startled and frankly I was shocked. I was also relieved that he came back to me when called. Again I did not punish or scold, I just tethered him to my waist and continued. It didn't even occur to me to approach the woman, I was just grateful she wasn't yelling at me about my dog! At the park, I simply put myself between Witt and the man, to be honest, I let the man have an earfull of profanity about following me and trying to touch my dog. It really p*sses me off to no end when people do that and he had been so weird all day as it was, I just had no sympathy. I did not correct Witt, other than I told him "enough" and "leave it". He did but kept a close eye on the man.
When he snipped at the little girl, I swatted him on the butt and told him "no", I was rather shocked that he had done it. I untethered him from the table leg and attached his leash to my waist again. Shortly after that I took him home and let him have some space and time alone. It wasn't until the trainer pointed out that the two incidents that I didn't really have a reason for were both older asian people that he had issue with, she also pointed out that Witt DID have reason to be gaurded about the man at the park. That I did understand, but wasn't sure how I felt about him snapping at the man. I would prefer he give warning vocally. He is a very vocal dog and even when just playing sounds viscious as heck. He is property aggressive and that is natural for his breed, he will stop when I tell him to. I understand he is young yet and I am not worried about this, I just want to make sure I have the right guidance in training him well. I honestly do not feel like he is an "aggressive dog". I feel like he is protective and a bit of a bully at times. He is also very loving and can be quite sensitive. We have several friends that he is ecstatic to see when they visit, others he could care less about or seems indifferent to their attention. My husbands best friend, tries to pet him and he simply walks away. This drives the man nuts...since he is convinced he is Grizzly Adams. I think it is interesting because I do not like this man, but because he is a friend of my husbands I of course am nice to him and cordial. Witt treats him the same, cordial but not really thrilled.
The only time in any of those incidents that I had the sense Witt was scared or unnerved was the beach incident. The rest it seemed were all protection motivated. Thats my feeling anyhow. But he has seemed so much more relaxed lately. We have taken him to several events (doggie events), in fact Sunday we went to a night time Halloween lights display, people and dogs were in costumes, people were touching him and reaching out to pet him. He was just happy to be out and about and wanted to play with the other dogs. I think I may go ahead and sign up for the advanced obedience classes, it will be with the same trainer, and I see this woman at flyball events frequently, she has the opportunity to see him out in different situations, if she still thinks I should do a little one on one I will.

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jeminn
Member

Posts: 166
From:Colorado, USA
Registered: Jul 2003

posted 10-15-2003 04:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jeminn     Edit/Delete Message
Maisey- Well the only thing I can think of is that just might help to approach someone Witt sees as threatening, if you have the opportunity to do so, and making him face his fears, so to speak. It is always handy to have treats in your pockets for such occassions. When you have recalled him, tethered him to you or the truck, or put him in his kennel it could possibly be reinforcing his attachment to you and his reaction to the situation. Witt could be learning to reinforce his territorial behavior (over you, the yard, your children etc.) or reinforcing that the suspcious person was in fact, suspicious enough for you to remove him from the situation, instead of showing him there is nothing to feel threatened by. You're maybe giving him the security he is looking for by getting to be closer to you, or back in familiar territory (truck, kennel etc.) if something or someone seems spooky. I am just trying to think like Witt- he seems smart as a whip an totally tuned into you. If you walk away from the spooky thing, he may feel completely justified in doing "his job" by warning you, warning the object or intruder. I could be way off- who knows.
As I am sure you know, we all should be prepared to understand that there could be situations, people, objects, events that could possibly trigger something new and unexpected in our pets. We can't always be prepared for whatever situation is out there, especially when your dog goes as many places as Witt does, and is a sweet, predictable boy 99% of the time. I am sure you will get this figured out because you are very tuned into your dog, and Witt is certainly tuned into you.

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Lucky
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Posts: 75
From:
Registered: Jun 2003

posted 10-15-2003 09:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lucky     Edit/Delete Message
You know, in reading your post it seems to me that the incident with the older Asian lady may be understandable too. If she ignores you and is rude to you, could it be that you have some negative feelings about her that the dog has picked up on?

Sounds to me like you have a dog that is very attuned to your moods and emotions.

It never hurts to do more obedience, but it sure doesn't sound like your dog is about to attack anyone.

I think that my advice is to trust your own intuitions about this one. Do you have any lingering doubts? If the dog bites someone would you be completely shocked or would you feel as though you should have seen it coming?

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Maisey
Member

Posts: 585
From:Portland, Oregon US
Registered: Sep 2003

posted 10-15-2003 11:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Maisey     Edit/Delete Message
Lucky, I think that I would feel at fault for anything Witt did that was wrong like that. I don't think there is a viscious bone in his body, but I do think he learns appropriate behavior from me, if I don't teach him well then I would feel responsible for bad behavior. Given the incidents that have already occured I would feel like I should have seen it coming. I think my intuition is telling me to go ahead and sign up for the advanced obedience class, if the trainer then see's an area we need to work on in private, I will. I sort of feel like taking him in for an hour specifically to observe him for signs of aggression would be a waste...in that I don't think he would display any. I think I have a better chance of her seeing the true Witt and how I work with him in a class setting with others around. I think that his behavior is directly related to how I am handling him, something I am doing or not doing.
About my neighbor lady, you may be right. I don't like her much, not because she ignores me, but because she pretends to not speak english and in addition she has some habits that aren't exactly thrilling to me. She washes her dishes under the trees on the side of her house, dumps huge vats of grease there which I understand has caused a problem with rats in the past, I'm not anxious to deal with rats in my neighborhood. I know that sounds petty, but it's honest and I am sure you are right about Witt picking up on my feelings. The thing is, I got Witt cause I wanted a dog I could take everywhere with me, I like that he is always beside me, I love that I am his favorite person and I value his being protective of my family. I don't want to eliminate any of that, I would like to learn how to keep it that way, but in check, in control. I want to be able to trust his behavior. I hope it is not a case where I have to give up one to have the other. My husband thinks I am simply expecting too much too soon for a dog not even a year old, that may be, he is smart and learns fast but maybe some of this has to do with needing some maturity. LOL, I think I should just go see the trainer and let her tell me what she thinks!

Thank you everyone for your thoughts, it helps to have a sounding board and hear ideas from others.

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Jamiya
Member

Posts: 501
From:
Registered: Sep 2003

posted 10-16-2003 06:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jamiya     Edit/Delete Message
Maisey - It sounds like your instincts are right on and you just needed us to tell you so to reinforce it!

Go to the class and make sure the trainer knows your concerns so she watches for things you might be doing specifically for that problem.

The one thing I have heard over and over again is that as an agressive breed matures, behaviors will manifest that never showed as a puppy. I am not saying this is true in your case - I am just saying that it is very wise of you to be concerned even though he has always been very sweet.

I have also always heard that the best way to control these new behaviors is to nip them in the bud!

It sounds like you are doing everything right. Your trainer should be able to advise you if she thinks there is any need for some individual work with Witt.

Have fun at your class!


Jamiya

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Jas

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Posts: 262
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Registered: May 2003

posted 10-16-2003 04:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jas     Edit/Delete Message
That's the hard part Maisey isn't it - you call them to stop them from doing something they shouldn't and they come back to you. So at times its a question of do I punish him for doing that or reward for coming back to me? You're right its better to reward for coming but there is still the fact that he did something he shouldn't have. Dogs will repeat a behavior that works. It sounds like the growling, lunging and behavior is because your dog is feeling threatened. With dogs its Fight or Flight. Someone unusual is near = feeling threatened. Being tied or held on leash = not able to get away. I think he is reacting with a normal rational of 1) do something to get this people away and 2) move self away.

I guess what you need to look into is why your dog perceives these people as a threat? Try to see it from your dogs POV - are they going to take something from me are they going to hurt my family or do they look "different" than the people I'm normally around? Your dog has decided what things are scary and threatening, now the trick is for you to teach him that these "things" (people) are not threatening by desensitizing him.

I would bring him in to be evaluated, a good trainer/behaviorist will pick up on the problem and work with you to solve it.

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