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 Is a puppy growling normal? and other behaviors
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| Posted by | Topic subject: Is a puppy growling normal? and other behaviors |
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dobergal New Member  Posts: 4 |
posted 09-23-2003 01:06 PM
 
Hi its me again, and I just made a post regarding my dog/cat situation. But I had another question as well, and this forum seems to have some of the most knowledgeable and helpful people. So thank you all so much. I am usually scrambling all over the internet or reading one of the zillion puppy books I have, unfortunately I never know if what I am experiencing is normal. It is comforting to hear that others have had similar situations and were able to work thought it. I should also mention I am a first time puppy owner, the last dog I got when he was 8 months old from the shelter and he was with me for 16 years. So all this puppy stuff is so new to me. My dobie puppy who is 11 weeks old likes to tear at my pants and growl and bark at me. I tell him "NO" and it seems like it excites him more. I know the pulling of the clothes is pretty normal puppy stuff, but what about the growling? Is this a sign of future aggression? He sometime lunges at my thighs to grab my pants and grabs some of my skin which hurts like heck. Also, my cats have this little tunnel and it was rolling across the room and then came to a stand still and he kept growling at it and barking. The growling is certainly concerning to me and my boyfriend because this will grow up to be a very strong dog around 80 pounds and I don't want to have an aggressive dog. Unfortunately, again I have received much conflicting advice, I just don't know what is "normal." One other concerning thing is that many times he seems pretty indifferent to us, like he could take us or leave us. My other dog I had always wanted to be around us and wanted to be petted and play. This puppy seems very independent, I don't know if that means he'll never be a loving dog and will always just want to do his own thing. Again, maybe his is all normal and I am just over reacting, I have only had him slightly over 2 weeks and perhaps he just hasn't bonded with us yet. I had my other dog for so long that I forgot all the earlier behavior. Thanks for taking the time to listen. I have some picture albums of my puppy on the internet here: and here: It also shows the crazy dog and cat circus I have going on as well. Thanks Again. ~Yvette IP: Logged |
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jeminn Member  Posts: 166 |
posted 09-23-2003 03:03 PM
I can't remember in your other post (which I also responded to) if you said you had your pup in any puppy socializing classes or have started any kind of obedience training. If you haven't I would get your pup enrolled asap and get some advice about some of these concerns from an experienced trainer who can see this behavior first hand. The aggression issue and growling concerns sound like your dog may be trying to establish some dominance over you and that needs addressed, in a positive, yet firm way especially with dogs that seem indifferent to you. Have you found a special treat to use for training? Try to find something really special that you can use to work with your dog to encourage his desires to please and listen to you. Try small liver treats by Bil-Jac, or keep searching until you find something that is especially pleasing to your dog which you only use for training situations. It is extremely important to establish a level of trust and loyalty with your dog during this stage. Sometimes, if you are trying to correct so many things at once with a pup that growls or shows indifference in pleasing you, it can push the dog in the wrong direction, bringing out aggression, and possibly fear-biting. I am not saying that is what will happen- but I have seen it happen with pups that show these tendencies to bite, or be indifferent in pleasing you. There is a lot of good advice here on these boards, but I would urge you to get in touch with a trainer in a group setting at this stage for socializing skills, and also try to find someone who has worked with this breed for some one on one training as your pup gets older. It can be a challenge to find the right trainer, so ask a lot of questions about how they go about dealing with growling, nipping and biting on your clothing. The wrong trainer and do as much harm with your dog as a good trainer can do to help, so do your homework, which it sounds like you are doing or you wouldn't be here. When you say you have received conflicting advice, what has been suggested to you? Every dog is different, and what works for one, may not work for another- it is most important to find a trainer who can adjust their training skills personally for each dog, and will take the time to come to understand your dogs temperment and work with it, not against it. It would be helpful if they had experience with this type of breed or breeds that have a protective nature. Be sure to ask for references and call those people to see what kind of dogs the trainer produced. It is not too early to find someone to help you get things off to a good start, who can work with you later as your dog gets older and ready for more formal training. Also, you need to be thinking about what you want from this type of dog. Do you want him to be protective of you, your home? What were you looking for when you decided to get this type of breed? Dobies are instinctively protective and can seem aloof, but are also very loyal and good natured in general. Any dog has potential to become aggressive, and you just have to watch for the signs and know how to respond to them to keep things in check. A good trainer will ask these questions, and you will want to give him or her as much information as possible about your expectations. Good luck- his pictures sure are cute. [This message has been edited by jeminn (edited 09-23-2003).] IP: Logged |
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dogangel Member Posts: 75 |
posted 09-23-2003 05:59 PM
Oh, God, what a SWEETHEART of a puppy you have, dobergal!!!! Don't worry about him still being a little aloof. Dobies are velcro dogs, so in another couple of weeks you will fondly remember the good old days when you could go to the bathroom alone (LOL). Also, Dobies are clowns. So be prepared for quite some laughing... As far as the growling goes, when exactly does he growl at you? Is it about food, is it about playing? If it's about food or if he's trying to chase you away from HIS sofa, or HIS bed, then you have a little situation. If it's when you play, then I wouldn't worry... Still, you must definitely take him to obedience classes. He will be a big boy (around 100.00 pounds), therefore he needs to be very well mannered. And not only around his own family, but with everybody else. IP: Logged |
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Maizey unregistered |
posted 09-23-2003 06:19 PM
OOOO too cute! You know I think obedience classes (puppy level) is something you would really like, you would have fun, he will gain manners and most of all you will start to relax and enjoy that bundle of adorableness(ok, thats not a real word). The best part is you will be with other people who love dogs and he will get needed socialization. Check out PetsMart in your area for a beginning class, they are reasonable priced and great for starters. IP: Logged |
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dobergal New Member Posts: 4 |
posted 09-23-2003 08:13 PM
Thank you all so much for your advice and comments. My puppy has seemed to have aggression issues. He is extremely dog aggressive with other dogs, both males and females. Today we went back to have his ears re-taped and he saw one of his fellow sister littermates and he wanted to tear her head off, he was barking and growling and trying to lunge at her. He has had this reaction before to other dogs he has seen pass by. Also, today when I was trying to play with him he curled his lips back and showed his teeth to me while growling. I wasn't making any frightening moves I was just sitting on the floor. He is not food aggressive or toy aggressive he will let you put your fingers in his bowl or take a toy out of his mouth (if you are able to). But the growling curling his lip and showing teeth is definitely a disturbing behavior and I have had much concern about it. I do have a trainer that has come to the house and met with Porter, her assessment is that he is an extremely dominant boy and extremely intelligent, and that he might be too much for me. She feels that if he doesn't receive the right discipline he needs it could have disastrous effects. Others in the Doberman world have told me that this type of personality needs to be in a very specific type of home. I relayed my story to another woman who I sought advice from and she told me her story with her dominant Doberman that 2 years later took a chunk out of her shoulder and need 18 stitches. I love my dog so much but I want to do the right thing for him and me. Today he chased one of the cats right off the balcony (2 stories). Luckily the cat didn't hit any of the bushes along the way and he was fine. Our puppy has also caused a riff between my 2 cats who were always friends for the last 3 years and now they fight... I think because my gray cat "Hope" has learned to play more rough with the puppy and when he goes to play with our other cat "jullian" he plays the same, which Jullian isn't appreciative of. I had done my research and chose this breed because I have read that they were highly intelligent, loyal, obedient and made great pet therapy dogs too. And that is something I wanted to get involved in (pet therapy), but since my boyfriend frequents New York and I am alone at home I also wanted a dog that I could feel safe with. So this seemed like the perfect dog. I don't know how he could get along in a puppy class because he just hates other dogs. I don't understand how such a little puppy could be so aggressive towards them. So that is where I am at. I have consulted with some very knowledgeable Doberman individuals and they have all stated that I should return him to the breeder. That I would do better to go with a female dobie and to also take a lot of time to make sure you choose the right temperament. The females are less likely to be dog aggressive. But, it breaks my heart to think of returning him. I love him to death. Thank you all for your kind, helpful and wonderful comments. This is truly a great forum and an invaluable resource. ~Yvette IP: Logged |
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charmedagain Member Posts: 240 |
posted 09-24-2003 01:11 AM
hi there as a german shepherd dog breeder i have come across this a few times if puppy classes dont work the only other solution you have is ignore him, when he is playing nice then play back but the second he turns to his growling ignore him or put him out the room and tell him bad boy, you can also try the water spray technique if you have a pight water spray bottle keep it handy to you and if when he grabs you and is growling spray him with the water this has to seem to come from your clothing or what ever he is biting on not you as if he see's you doing it he will think its a play tactic. aggression is sometime passed down from one or both parents so if either one was an agressive dog it is more than likely you would get the same in a pup, aslong as your firm with your new pup and show him your the boss and the dominant one and not him he will soon come to realise he cant get away with it no-more, as for him barking and growling at your cat aslong as he dont hurt the cat by biting it then this is nothing to worry about he just wants to play, growling and barking at other dogs is normal but if this persists a dog muzzle should sort that problem out my dog has a thing against other dogs yet she is a different dog when its time for mating plenty of interaction with other dogs helps alot keep us posted of his progress and hope you get him sorted.. here is a couple of links you mite like to read about agression to other animals and how to deal with a dominant dog... the last link is the tell tale signs if your dog is going to be an agressive dog all its life hope this is of some help to you IP: Logged |
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Jamiya Member Posts: 501 |
posted 09-24-2003 07:23 AM
I sympathize with you, Yvette. You have a difficult decision to make. Have you spoken with the breeder about your concerns? Maybe get a second trainer who is familiar with the breed to come to your home and see if the advice is the same as the other trainer? I know it would be heartbreaking to have to give him back, but it could be the right thing to do. I'm not saying it is, but you are not doing yourself or the dog a favor if it is not a good match. Things will only get worse and more difficult to fix as time goes on - IF this is the wrong dog for you. Did your breeder have any sort of provisions for returning the dog or exchanging it for a different puppy if it didn't work out? Definitely talk with the breeder - hopefully you chose one that will help you sort out behavior issues. Also, try a behaviorist rather than just a trainer. They are different people and do different things. Our mixed breed puppy is doing some of the things your guy is. She chases my cats and bites their tails. Sometimes she gets totally out of control and jumps up and bites my clothing or my skin and NOTHING calms her down. I think I am going to try time-outs. I do try to burn off her energy but if that's not working then I don't know what else to do. I started using a squirt bottle this morning and it startled her, but I don't think it will take very long for her to learn she has to behave if it is in my hand but she can ignore me if it isn't. The whole thing about making the dog think it is coming from your clothes is totally impossible - this dog is VERY smart and there's no way I could fool her. She can hear the bottle, she can see it in my hand.....duh. I have tried grabbing her collar and giving her a good shake, and in extreme situations I have resorted to an alpha roll. She does calm down (eventually) but when I let her up she is usually right back at it. She seems to snap at me if I persist, which alarms me somewhat. She is such a sweet dog when she is calm. She learns very fast and is doing well with obedience when she is calm or tired. Otherwise, she goes totally deaf and I can't do a thing with her. She does like to be with me, but I think my praise isn't worth enough to her to behave without treats. When she goes nuts, not even the treats will distract her. I am looking into agility training to give her an outlet. I have been told she is too young, but finding something to train her in that is more active than simple obedience commands seems to me to be a good idea. Sorry for rambling. I am at wit's end with this thing as well. Talk to your breeder; talk to a behaviorist - that is my best advice. And keep us posted!
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jeminn Member Posts: 166 |
posted 09-24-2003 08:04 AM
dobergal- it sounds like you have some pretty serious aggression issues going on and you have every right to be concerned. But, your pup is young- and I would do anything and everything possible to get your dog socialized, as long as it is in a controlled acceptable environment, that is both safe for your dog and others, preferably under the guidance of a trainer, who can teach you how firm you need to be to establish yourself as a "pack leader" in your dogs eyes, and how to react to situations that will guide your dogs actions and reactions into acceptable behavior. It is very difficult to learn specific things like this from books or these boards- you need hands on contact and someone who is willing to work with you on these issues instead of giving up and telling you to take the dog back, or find another. You obviously are very attached to your pup and want to do what is best. Your dog could very well end up in the wrong hands, or could end up in a shelter if he ends up back with the breeder. He needs you- don't give up on him. (I know you are crazy about him and want to do the best you can  - Keep searching for the right individual to help you work with your dog and find a puppy class whose trainer can handle dog-aggressive puppies. I have seen classes and met trainers who work on these issues and nothing else. When we raised shepherds or had protection training dogs come in for training, we often had to deal with these issues and they can be controlled and modified. Sometimes certain dogs could only be with a certain type of individual, but your pup is young enough to try and get him on the right track asap, and you seem willing to learn and do everything you can to bring out the best in your dog. As things progress you will know whether or not you can handle certain inherent traits that your dog may have, which may require a certain type of owner. But, you have time on your side, and opportunity here and now to try some different things with your pup at this formadable age. Do you live in an area that would offer a large selection of trainers and different types of classes? I have seen dog aggression with just about every breed, and you can get things under control but it takes work, time, patience, and the right individual helping you. I can't stress that enough. Your puppy is at it's most impressionable stage in his development. By the time they are 6 to 7 months old, his personality will be pretty established. Do you know anyone else with a puppy or a dog that would be willing to participate with you and your puppy in learning social skills? Someone whose dog will not be scared off by your pups behavior? If you do, you can work with your dogs from a safe, non-threatening distance to teach your pup about other dogs. It can be overwhelming and too stimulating for a dog such as yours to be in a room with several dogs or puppies running about. If you can work with someone else and their dog (or a trainer and their dog) in a one on one situation, that would be beneficial. I would suggest that this be a gradual process, starting from quite some distance for your dog to be around another. Without seeing your dogs behavior it is hard to tell what or how far away a dogs presence triggers his aggression. Again, something a trainer with dog aggression experience can teach you how to go about this with other dogs. It is hard to explain it all in this forum. IP: Logged |
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dogangel Member Posts: 75 |
posted 09-24-2003 07:25 PM
Please don't give him away!!! You already are his mommy, and he won't understand why you abanoned him... All you need to do is just to be a little firmer with him. You need to become his Alpha. First, don't be afraid that he is or will be a big boy. Size, when it comes to "Mommy" shouldn't matter. I know what I am saying, because I have two Dachshunds, three German Shepherds and a Dobie/ German Shepherd mix, and they all obey me just the same. How do you do it? There is one thing I learned, dealing with so many "furry children". Rule number one for a dog is - "The one who controls the food (to include treats) is the boss". So take it from there. Don't worry about him being dog aggressive. That can be corrected too. Two of the dogs I adopted were VERY dog aggressive. But with patience and training, now they are the best of buddies. You do need to take him to obedience classes. Not only will you learn how to handle him, but you will give him the chance to socialize with other dogs. This is very important. The trainer you talked to said that he may not be the right dog for you probably because she felt that you were a little afraid of him??!! Dobergal, never be afraid of your own dog!!! (BTW, I think the story with the lady that got 108 stiches because her own dog got away with a chunk of her shoulder is nothing else but... a story). IP: Logged |
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charmedagain Member Posts: 240 |
posted 09-25-2003 03:07 AM
i have to agree with everyone your puppy needs to learn your the boss not him at the moment he can sense your fear of his agression and he is using that to the full unless you take control as boss he will run your household and his agression will increase with age you have to be firm with him and like some said the one with the food and the treats is the boss when he becomes agressive with you or your family put him in a room away from you and say bad boy he will realise he is being bad and should start to improve. before taking your puppy to training classes please make sure that all his vaccinations are complete as these classes are a breeding ground for germs from un-vaccinated dogs keep us posted of his progress. your the mommy he is the baby if a child did something wrong you would not let them get away with it you would punish them by sending them to there room or something like that so dont let yu puppy get away with his biting and growling. good luck IP: Logged |
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dobergal New Member Posts: 4 |
posted 09-25-2003 09:03 AM
Thank you everyone for all your responses to my situation. I have been correcting my puppy for the growling and biting but it seems to excite him more. I give him a time out and walk out of the room in which case he was wining, then the minute I walked back in the room he was back to his rough play lungeing at my pants and my arm. Just now he went for my arm and bit hard and as his teeth slid of my arm now I have a huge mark (like a line) and it is bright pink. Its funny because its sits like an "X" across the one my cat left me a couple years ago when I tried to catch him as he darted out of the house. Anyway, this was after a few times of me correcting him firmly and saying "NO" and also leaving the room, finally I just put him in his crate. I really am willing to try anything to work with me little puppy. And as dogangel said, I am his mommy and he won't understand why he was taken back. I agree with that and that is exactly how I feel. I have never been in this situation before where I had to prove I was the pack leader. So this is all new to me. Yesterday I tried the waterspray bottle thing when he went for my pants and it got his attention and got him to listen only one time. The first time he just walked away, the rest of the day he started to growl at the bottle and go for my pants. So that doesn't seem like it will be working for me. The links that charmedagain provided me were great and extremely informational. After I read the articles on that site, I was like, well maybe my puppy isn't aggressive at all, because he doesn't do alot of what that site describes. I live in the Los Angeles area and will be trying to find a trainer that is willing to evaluate my puppy and hopefully work with me on how to correct growling, biting seemingly agresssive behavior. For example last night he was sitting down by us and I sat down next to him and wrapped my arms around him and his gave me a low growl. I wasn't hurting him or putting any weight on him at all. Again, I have never seen this type of reaction. I will try to look into puppy classes today. Everyone's comments have been very helpful and encouraging. Thank you all so much. ~Yvette IP: Logged |
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jeminn Member Posts: 166 |
posted 09-26-2003 07:18 AM
Dobergal- You are going to have to use a more firm tone, and a firmer grip with your dog when he comes after you and bites you. If you don't, you are never going to get your dominance established with your dog. When you correct your dog, do what it takes to establish yourself as "pack leader", and if that means picking him up by the scruff of his neck, making direct eye contact with him until he looks away from you or whines, then DO IT. You may also need to get a pinch collar on your dog if you are unable to get the response you need with a verbal correction. Until you set the "pack rules" this dog is going to continue to challenge you and take on the role himself, if he thinks he can get away with it. You have to be FIRM. You will have problems with all your training goals if this is dominance problem is not corrected now. I hope that you get with the right kind of trainer who can show you how to handle establishing yourself as pack leader. Read up on those websites that Rottymommy shared- they are very helpful and even though you may not see the degree of problems he talks about with dog aggression, YET, you need to get things going in the right direction before you have bigger problems on your hands. Also, remember that not all trainers are good with aggression problems and make sure that the advice they give you is sound. Compare what they teach you to some of the things from the articles from Leerburg. It is hard to know the difference between right and wrong approaches when it comes to dealing with these problems because every trainer is different. Be sure to ask what kind of experience the trainer has dealing with these issues and if possible, get some references to see how those dogs turned out. If you are still unsure about things, I would consider emailing Leeburg himself and get his opinion. http://www.leerburg.com/dominac2.htm IP: Logged |
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