posted 08-26-2003 12:40 PM            

While reading the description of one I found, I saw that it said that no pit bulls or pit bull mixes were allowed.

My dog has pit in him and he's been to a different dog park several times. He loves playing with other dogs. He's the most loving, kind, gentle dog in the world. He plays with a 5 pound terrier and makes sure to jump over her as not to hurt her.

I just think it's a bit discriminating to single that breed out from all others and not allow them in.

Yes, it is a privately owned dog park so they can do what the want.

But, it still hurts that my sweet pup isn't allowed in because of how some (and not the majority) people raise their dogs to be vicious.

posted 08-26-2003 12:58 PM         

Here is a link to a page that discusses APBTs and the dog park issue: http://www.badrap.org/rescue/dogpark.cfm
That page is from BadRap's website (Bay Area Doglovers Responsible About Pitbulls). They are a very well-known and respected APBT rescue organization in San Fransisco.

I would stay away from dog parks even if I didn't own an APBT--they are a grab bag of uncertainty, and even if you know your dog is 100% friendly, there is always the chance that he will run into an aggressive unfriendly dog that starts a fight. Most bull dogs don't back down if challenged. In the end, it won't matter who started the fight--all the public will hear is that a pit bull was involved.

So I sympathize with you, but you may want to consider rethinking the idea of taking your dog to a dog park at all.

JMO, and good luck.

posted 08-26-2003 01:42 PM            

There are other dogs that can be aggressive and large - I think it lays quite a bit on the owner and how they raised the animal. Isn't it sad that the public would point out the pit breed was involved even if it didn't start the fight?

By the way, I will check out that link when I get a chance.

My dog is less than 1/3 pit bull and it seems unfair to single him out because he has white marks on his chest (that's the only way we even know he has it in him.)

When we got the dog, we didn't even know he had pit in him (the shelter just said he was a German Shepard mix). We found out when looking at the neighbor's pure bred Pit and ours.

I guess my real complaint is that it seems almost socially unacceptable to say that the dog has pit in it and they assume he wants to fight (without meeting him).

I'm just not happy with the unfair stigma that accompanies the breed when it's hardly the breed's fault.

But, I certainly agree that dog parks are unpredictable and if two dogs got in a fight, the public would only hear Pit Bull.

posted 08-26-2003 03:01 PM         

quote:

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I think it lays quite a bit on the owner and how they raised the animal.

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Unfortunately, this is not always true for APBTs. Your dog is a mix, so things may not be as clear cut for him, but because of their heritage, American Pit Bull Terriers are prone to dog aggression in adulthood. Socialization can make a huge difference, but it does not guarantee an aggression-free dog. Many APBTs grow up to be dog aggressive even if they have been raised with other dogs. Unfortunately dog aggression is a very real and negative aspect of owning the breed. Please read Badrap's site--there is a ton of good information to be found there!

quote:

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I'm just not happy with the unfair stigma that accompanies the breed when it's hardly the breed's fault.

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Of course it's not the breed's fault--it is the fault of the people who own them and do not take proper precautions. There are many unfair stigmas that come along with owning an APBT or pit mix. By banning pit bulls from their dog park, the owners are definitely contributing to the public's already irrational fear of these dogs, but the APBT as a breed should not be in a dog park in the first place.

I recently read a horrible story posted on another bulletin board about APBTs and dog parks. An APBT was attacked by another dog, and when it defended itself, an entire crowd of dog owners at the dog park beat the pit bull to within an inch of its life. The other dog wasn't even injured by the APBT.

quote:

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This type of stereo type directly contributes to so many pits being put down every year. That park is reinforcing a negative stereotype. I was watching animal planet not too long ago and they had a show on that spoke of the vast number of APBTs that are put down because of the public fear, once these dogs end up in a shelter it's pretty much over for them, very few get adopted. I would write them and I'd encourage anyone I knew with an APBT to do the same.

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The stereotype is unfair, but this dog park's rules probably have little to no effect on the predicament the breed currently faces. The fact remains that APBTs and dogparks aren't a good match over all.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, but the general public's irrational fear of these dogs will remain, whether or not that dog park revises its rules. The park's owners may be just as afraid of these dogs as the rest of the public, or they may have other reasons to want to keep pit bulls out of their park. Lucidity should write them if he or she feels compelled to, I agree. Personally, I would encourage the park to change its rule and bar aggressive dogs of any breed instead of just APBTs. Even so, though, as I've said, the breed simply does not belong at the dog park.

posted 08-26-2003 10:33 PM         

People aren't going to care which dog started the fight, instead they're going to be thinking, "That poor dog was just doing such and such.... he didn't do anything to deserve to be ripped to pieces..... he was even trying to run away, but that pit bull just kept coming at him". Or the ever popular "turning" myth will come into play in the form of "They were all playing happily one minute, then seconds later, that pit bull just grabbed him and killed him.... they just can't be trusted".

We have two pit bulls, both rescues, both spayed females, along with three other smaller, non-pit bull dogs. The original owner of the older one was trying to fight her at the tender age of 6 months old, before we got her at age 8 months. She didn't care for other dogs then, became progressively less tolerant as she matured, and has little tolerance for strange dogs, though she lives peacefully with 4 other dogs (3 of those females). The younger pit bull was found wandering the streets at 7 months of age, so we have no idea what her life was like before then. She's been pushy and dominant with other dogs from the get-go, and when things don't go her way, pushes things right into a fight. She's kept seperated from the other dogs except for when I'm able to closely watch her to head off any attempts at picking fights, and as of now, is only allowed out with Goo, because Goo is the only one who will tolerate her rude and pushy behavior when she slips something past me. Since meeting Haley, Goo has been humped, pushed around, had her ears/butt sniffed excessively, been leaned on, and trampled, among other things, without so much as a warning snap. She's also ignored direct challenges, even a few attacks from the smaller dogs, instead running either to me, or off to the safety of her babygated room (she jumps the gate, but they can't), away from them. Yet, if one of them were ever to push her to the point where she would fight with them, it would be OVER. For that reason, we make sure she has her space to get away from them, and she stays in my room when we're not home, while the smaller dogs are gated in the kitchen, and the younger pit bull is gated in the office. I trust Goo not to start a fight (with our dogs, at least, she would absolutely start a fight with a strange dog), but NOT to not defend herself if she gets caught in the middle of one. I also realize that because of the natural advantage she has if she gets into a fight, such an event would likely result in her seriously injuring, maybe killing one of the other dogs. Not something worth risking IMO. Of course, one can easily be lulled into thinking, "It won't happen to me, my dogs wouldn't fight", especially when they're doing something as peacful looking as sharing a bed to sleep on (as the two bullies are doing right now), but it CAN happen to anyone, and it's not something that can be "made right" after the fact.

Yes, it's not really "nice" of the dog park to single out pit bulls and not allow them; but it's not nearly as bad for the breed's image as a pit bull getting into a raging fight with another dog at the dogpark would be.

posted 08-27-2003 05:38 AM            

I would not take rescue dogs that were being put into fights to a dog park. But, my dog has NEVER gotten aggressive in the park, has backed down if another dog was aggressive towards him, and has left a group of playing dogs when it gets a little rough or too crowded.

Honestly, if I took my dog to that park, I doubt anyone would say anything to me or know what breeds he has in him. I'm just frustrated with society.

I watch Animal Planet and those cop shows. It makes me sick what some Pit Bulls are subjected to and that they must be destroyed since there is no way they could function in society. Unfortunatly, it's the only humane option it seems.

But, I have seen in many repiies that you guys say... if another dog picks a fight, the Pit would be the dog people are angry at.

Isn't there a problem with this? It is a fact and I agree. But, I think it needs to change.

By the way, I have seen a very aggressive Jack Russell Terrier try to fight my dog (he's a neighbor dog)... He would tear my dog up if I let him.

posted 08-27-2003 11:45 AM         

quote:

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But, my dog has NEVER gotten aggressive in the park, has backed down if another dog was aggressive towards him, and has left a group of playing dogs when it gets a little rough or too crowded.

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You also bring up another common misconception about fighting dogs/ex fighters... being fought (or having been fought) doesn't necessarily mean that a dog will outright attack any other dog it sees. Many dogs that are/have been fought can coexist with pups, dogs of the opposite sex, sometimes even submissive dogs of the same sex, as long as not challenged, when outside of the pit. It all depends on the individual dog. My dog for example, she's "queen bee" of the house, followed by the 3 other small dogs. Even their challenges are little more than irritation for her most of the time, and she ignores them. However, I have to be extremely careful that when she and the other pit bull are out together, there is nothing that would give Haley ideas about challenging Goo, because I can't see Goo giving up her spot on the social ladder without a fight, and a fight between these two wouldn't stop at just a little scrap.

So you have fighting dogs that go insane every time they see another dog... then you have other fighting dogs that can live peacefully with one of more other subordinate dogs. You also have pet dogs (who have been nothing but pets all their lives) who go insane at the sight of another dog, as well as pet dogs who seemingly are the same as every other dog out there, and get along fine with other dogs. It would make sense then, that there are pit bulls that are fairly "cold" (non-dog aggressive) by nature, and only fight when challenged, as well as pit bulls that will fight at the drop of a hat, with training/life experiences having little effect on how they react to other dogs in most cases.

On pit bulls being blamed for fights... the problem is that while the savage JRT next door may launch furiously at your dog, starting the fight, he'll be the one suffering the most greivious injuries when all is said and done, if he's even still alive. THAT is what's going to stick in peoples' minds, what that "horrible" pit bull did to the poor little JRT. They would see it like they would a child running up and teasing a huge adult man/woman, and the adult nearly beating the child to death for it. A completely uncalled for reaction for that situation. Make sense?

posted 08-27-2003 12:00 PM            

I never expected such a response to my post! It's been very interesting and I've enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts so far.

(rgyoung777, visitng that site is next on my list... I just read the first few paragraphs on the website... will it apply to my dog when he's so much of a mutt that he doesn't have much Pit in him? So far, that site only seems to be talking about pure-breds.)

(The pic showed up earlier for me. If it's a red x, you may be able to right click on the x and select 'show picture')

Or, if you can't see it, go to:
http://www.geocities.com/cathykaplan03/Cosmo.html

posted 08-27-2003 01:10 PM         

"Teenagers have them cause they look cool."
Careful there Maisey Not ALL teenagers have pit bulls because they "look cool" (though I'll admit that more do than don't). I also agree that there are far more irresponsible owners (not only of pit bulls, but of all breeds) than responsible owners, and responsibility is especially important in breeds like the APBT, who can be extremely strong and determined, and have a tendency to become dog aggressive.

posted 08-27-2003 02:21 PM            

Sorry Goob, I know that of course all teenagers don't have them cause they look cool, I don't mean to generalize and encompass a whole group into one statement. It is on my mind lately because I have had so much contact with teenagers who do in my own neighborhood think that way.
On a good note (well sort of) I visited our county pound last week impulsivly, I haven't been there for many years. I was shocked at the number of Pit Bulls there and asked a shelter worker about it. She said she thought they were popular in that particular area and unfortunately with irresponsible owners. She said they do adopt them out alot. I had thought our county pound automatically put them down.
I would love the links to those pamphlets you suggested, Witt can carry them in his back pack whenever we go out and I'll be happy to post and hand them out. Looking at those pictures of the shar-peis...and the few that are in my neighborhood, I still just don't see as much resemblance in Witt as others do, and neither does my husband, but either way, pit bull/ shar-pei, he would still be mixed with a breed that has many of the same characteristics temperment wise. I also did not know shar-peis had been used to hog hunt! Catahoulas are used for hog dogs as well, very much so.
Witt is awesome on leash, you would think he was a therapy dog. But take that leash off and he becomes very very protective, he goes into gaurd mode, the older he has gotten the more pronounced it has gotten. He is not dog aggressive, but when left off leash to play with other dogs he is very assertive, he plays rough and is an "in your face" kind of pup. He also is VERY VERY vocal, he sounds exactly like a Tazmanian Devil, he does the teeth baring thing, he looks like a bear fighting sometimes. Dooley and Witt play wonderfully together, but when other people watch and listen to them playing they always think they are fighting, and because Dooley is the quiet one, they always think Witt is the one beating him up and being viscious. They ARE only playing and only a few times has Dooley had to put Witt in his place, and that is natural with a pup and adult dog and even then it was very quick and mild.
Witt is showing signs of gaurding and people aggression when off leash only, we have had three incidents that concerned me and I have called a trainer that was recommended to me. We have a pvt session in a week and a half so she can evaluate him and me=), we had a long phone conversation and she told me she thought this was adolesence rearing it's ugly but normal head, she also said that since I have worked with him so much, and he has such a large vocabulary already (knows alot of commands) that it will be fairly quick and not too complicated to clear up the issue. I knew when I adopted him that I may have to seek out additional help in training him along the way, and that a strong personality, instinct to gaurd and be protective, and high prey drive were a part of the package. I have no problem doing that, and no regrets in adopting him. I hate using the term "people agressive", and I really don't think that is what it is, but for lack of a better term thats what I used. I would not take him to an off leash anything, and after reading this string have decided I won't be taking Dooley either. I think my reservations in doing it in the first place have been confirmed in my own mind after reading the good points everyone has made here. Dooley plays well with just about every dog, he is a mediator, but if another dog started it, he would defend himself, and too many people would not be able to look at an incident with educated eyes that understand dog behavior. It's just not worth it to me.

posted 08-27-2003 03:41 PM         

I think that BadRap is probably the best rescue in the Bay Area, and is doing much better things for the breed than the SFSPCA. BadRap does extensive temperament evaluations on all of the dogs that come into their program, just like the SFSPCA, except that BadRap pulls APBTs from shelters. No-Kill shelters are a nice idea in theory, but the animals that No-Kill shelters turn away are often taken to city pounds and euthanized, even if they are adoptable. All "No-Kill" means is that that shelter doesn't euthanize animals in their program that they consider to be adoptable. The pit bulls with unknown histories that the SFSPCA does not take don't have a very bright future, even if they actually are adoptable.

Lucidity, I don't know if it's just those pictures, but I really don't see any APBT in your dog. Many mixed-breed dogs have white markings--it's not an indication that he necessarily has APBT in him at all. His face may have some pit-like features, but it is also very Shepherd-like. Do you have a picture that shows him head-on? How old is he? By the way, he is quite a handsome dog!

Here is a picture of Lucy, my female APBT:

I would still check out the link I posted about APBTs and dog parks, and I would encourage you to have a look at the rest of the site as well, as it is an excellent source of good, well-researched information on the APBT. I have read some posts in this thread that are well-meaning but are misguided about the breed and its behavioral tendencies.

Goo's posts in this thread are excellent, by the way.

I'm just pleased to see everyone behaving so politely on this thread. A few months ago, this topic would have sparked a huge, nasty argument.

You know your dog best, and if you feel he will be safe in a dog park setting, then more power to you. My APBT has never reacted aggressively to any dog she has ever met, and also backs down when challenged, but I love her too much to risk the possibility of her having an altercation with another dog.