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Posted by Topic subject:   ANY SUGGESTIONS??????
jlong
Member

Posts: 23
From:Clintwood, Va, USA
Registered: Apr 2003

posted 04-07-2003 11:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jlong   Click Here to Email jlong     Edit/Delete Message
Hello all
I currently have a 1 year old pug and an 8 year old boxer, they are both good dogs but I want to start from scratch and make myself the ultamate guard dog/all around well trained animal. I want something big but easy to train. I want him to be aggressive when I tell him BUT only when I tell him to.

What type of dog do you all think I should go with.

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PITBULL_PRINCESS1979
Member

Posts: 414
From:LOUISIANA,USA
Registered: Dec 2002

posted 04-08-2003 09:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for PITBULL_PRINCESS1979     Edit/Delete Message
I don't recommend you making any dog aggressive.If you are good to your dog then he/she will protect you from any harm.I suggest you get a dogs that looks and sounds tough..

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fluff n poof
unregistered
posted 04-08-2003 10:03 AM           Edit/Delete Message
Okay: First you have to think of the logistics of what you are wanting to do. When you decide you want a personal protection dog, it is the same as making a choice to own a personal side arm, sometimes owning a gun is even less of a liability. At the point of making the choice for an attack trained dog, you also become liable for any and all results from that choice. In some states, it does not matter the reasons for an attack (yes even during a crime) you are automatically liable for any damages done by your dog. It is absolutely possible to loose everything you own, want to own, or will own in your life over the damage done by a dog. And of course, the "viscious" dog looses his life.
If you wish to have a personal protection dog, it is best to go with a breed that has natural ability, and does not need to be trained to protect. A well bred guardian dog, who is socialized and well trained in obedience, is far more reliable as a guard dog then many, "attack" trained dogs who rely on human guidance to tell them what to do.
However, in all honesty, due to the pack nature of dogs, almost any dog will go to the aid of its owner. Some are just not as intimidating at first. I have known goldens who would lay down their life to protect thier people as well as the smallest chihuahua.
If you choose to still go the rout of an attack trained dog. I would strongly suggest that you get involved with a Schutzhund (sp?) club, that can help you choose and properly train a quality animal.
Good luck

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shmoopie
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Posts: 361
From:Vancouver, BC
Registered: Jan 2003

posted 04-08-2003 12:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for shmoopie   Click Here to Email shmoopie     Edit/Delete Message
I agree strongly with Pit Princess; however, Fluff makes very valuable points. *IF* you choose to go this route now knowing your dogs life will be destroyed/ended if the dog does protect you, I would strongly suggest looking into Shutzhound training. I'm sure your boxer would be able to protect you in an event where he/she sensed you were in danger.

5 years ago I decided the same as you, except I was very dog illiterate. I purchased a (supposed to be) fully obedience trained guard dog.....yeah right...this dog wouldn't even respond to my "sit" command..simply because I did not understand what it took to have him respect me enouph to do as I told him. I ended up returning him to the handler and purchasing my dog now as a puppy...never trained him to be an attack dog and he is VERY protective over me. It's something to do with the bond you develope with your dog and the natural personality of the dog.

If you look into shutzhound training and you are *VERY* experienced dog handler. I would suggest an American Bull dog...with some reseach on the breed first. However, dobermans and Germanshephards are naturals at it.

Good luck

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PITBULL_PRINCESS1979
Member

Posts: 414
From:LOUISIANA,USA
Registered: Dec 2002

posted 04-08-2003 12:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for PITBULL_PRINCESS1979     Edit/Delete Message
I agree with Fluff and Shmoopie as well.Just remember that this dog will be a life time commitment.
Please think about it VERY hard before decidding on it.I am not trying to change your mind,but this is a very touchy situation.

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goob
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Posts: 186
From:
Registered: Mar 2003

posted 04-08-2003 01:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for goob     Edit/Delete Message
If you want "the ultimate guard", then get a gun and learn how to use it responsibly. It's a simple fact of life that no dog can defend against a person with a gun or even a knife in some cases. Even places that use "guard dogs" usually have other security measures as well... alarms, security personnel, etc. It's easy enough to get a defensive display (what you would consider aggression) out of a dog, but it's a completely different story as to whether that dog has the nerve to back up his "show" and defend you if it comes down to it. Others have also pointed out the liabilities involved in owning such a dog, even if it's only doing it's job when it bites someone. If you have children, will you have to put the dog up everytime they bring a friend over for fear that the dog will see them rough-housing and grab one of them? You also have to take into account that a dog isn't always going to want to do what you say, and unless you cna be 100% sure that you will spend the dozens of hrs a WEEK working with that dog on it's obedience, and accept full responsibility should it attack someone when not commanded to do so, then it's not a good idea to even get involved with this type of training.

A much better idea would be to get a dog that YOU like, and take it through obedience classes. Once it has a basic foundation of obedience, you can add in the "watch" command, where the dog will hold it's sit, but track whomever you point to with their eyes... direct eye contact from a large, or even medium sized dog can be quite intimidating, and would be enough to make some would be attackers think twice. You could also train for other intimidating behaviors... like barking on command, or something I've been working on with one of our dogs (because I think it's funny, this dog is not and never will be a "guard" of any sort) chittering their teeth together in anticipation. I personally think that a dog sitting quietly by their owner, staring intently and seriously at people as they walk by, is more intimidating than a dog that growls, snarls, and lunges at the end of the lead as their owners struggle to hold them back. As has been said before, most dogs that feel "part" of a family will defend that family until their last breath, and require no training to do so.

If you do decide that you want to train a dog for personal protection work, you need to find a qualified trainer, and meet them/their dogs before bringing your dog for training. You should be able to meet their dogs, pet them, etc out in public without the dogs acting aggressively towards you. They should have experience in dealing with different breeds (especially yours ), and be willing to adapt their methods to your needs.

[This message has been edited by goob (edited 04-08-2003).]

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PITBULL_PRINCESS1979
Member

Posts: 414
From:LOUISIANA,USA
Registered: Dec 2002

posted 04-08-2003 03:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for PITBULL_PRINCESS1979     Edit/Delete Message
Goob,
I agree with you 100%.

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jlong
Member

Posts: 23
From:Clintwood, Va, USA
Registered: Apr 2003

posted 04-08-2003 05:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jlong   Click Here to Email jlong     Edit/Delete Message
I appreciate everyones concern and i apologize if I have affended anyone i should have chosen a better way to ask my question.
What i meant by that is NOT for me to make an all out killer BUT to train a dog for personal protection if it is ever needed. I want a dog like this not only for protection purposes although that will be a big factor when i begin my training.
P.S. I have 12 guns but if some one breaks into my house and i can not get to one of them what good are they. Think about that.

Thank you

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shmoopie
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Posts: 361
From:Vancouver, BC
Registered: Jan 2003

posted 04-08-2003 06:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for shmoopie   Click Here to Email shmoopie     Edit/Delete Message
OMG okay seriously...you have twelve guns....2 dogs that already look intimidating...and you want a dog to train for protection? Don't mean to be offensive but what are you trying to protect yourself from?
When I looked into a guard dog it was because an ex boyfriend couldn't handle the thought of me being with someone else and *literally* tried to kill me.
Best bet if you need that help, get the police involved.

Good luck, prayers are with you!

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PITBULL_PRINCESS1979
Member

Posts: 414
From:LOUISIANA,USA
Registered: Dec 2002

posted 04-08-2003 07:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for PITBULL_PRINCESS1979     Edit/Delete Message
I don't know what to tell you...The only thing I ask is for you NOT to get a Pit Bull,Rottie,Doberman,or a Mastiff.It's hard enough trying to keep these breeds alive.Don't need more people out there helping make bad reps.What ever you do I hope you can deal with it if your dog does bite someone.I also hope you can deal with the fact,if it does,it will be put down...
One question,knowing that,how could you teach you dog to attack?
Please do not misunderstand my question,I am not trying to be mean,its just a very important question.

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jlong
Member

Posts: 23
From:Clintwood, Va, USA
Registered: Apr 2003

posted 04-08-2003 07:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jlong   Click Here to Email jlong     Edit/Delete Message
PITBULL_PRINCESS1979

For one thing a pitbull does not need my help to get a bad rep. Look at the #s a pitbull is second only to a dalmation for dogs who turns on there owners.

For another if you know what you are doing when handleing a dog you can do it without turning the dog against people. Look at a well trained police k9, they are trained to attack but not seriously hurt people.

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Auspetian

Administrator

Posts: 197
From:Sydney
Registered: Jul 2002

posted 04-08-2003 08:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Auspetian   Click Here to Email Auspetian     Edit/Delete Message
Guys,

Jlong, has asked a very simple question.

Please keep your replies ON TOPIC !

Auspetian - Admin

[This message has been edited by Auspetian (edited 04-09-2003).]

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goob
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Posts: 186
From:
Registered: Mar 2003

posted 04-08-2003 10:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for goob     Edit/Delete Message
In reference to the comment you made about police dogs... there have been quite a few lawsuits filed against various police departments when their k-9 officers failed to obey the command to let go of the person they were restraining. These things happen even after careful screening for potential dogs, and intensive training they undergo before being allowed to work. (Note: I'm not at all being disrespectful to police dogs and/or their handlers, and have utmost respect for both for doing what they do, just bringing this up as an example of how even the most well trained dog can forget his/her training at times.) If your dog does something like that, however, you very well may be facing murder or manslaughter charges, or at the very least, assault with a deadly weapon. A dog isn't like a gun in that a dog will sometimes blow you off and do what they want, no training can completely guarantee that it won't happen. At least with a gun, you (usually) have ultimate control over whether it fires or not.

You also have to be prepared for your insurance company to dump you, as most won't insure certain breeds, or dogs "trained to protect". If you rent, or are governed (not sure whether "governed" is the right term, but oh well ) by a homeowners' association, you may also have problems with them. Many areas also have a bylaw where dogs that have undergone training to protect/guard have to be under certain mandatory restrictions, like short leashes when not confined in a securely locked, roofed pen; muzzles; etc.

There are quite a few of breeds that CAN be (but not always are) good at this type of work. A lot of the "rare" mastiff breeds are naturally aloof towards strangers, and seem to do well in protection work. Some of these breeds WILL attack a stranger unless the owner is there to intervene, and are a serious liability if not kept VERY responsibly. You have to be very careful to choose from a reputable breeder if you decide to get a dog from the above breeds, as poor temperment and crippling health problems are rampant in poorly bred specimens.
Then there are the more "traditional" "protection" breeds... GSDs, rotties, dobies, boxers, etc. A good on of these will work as well (if not better) than one of the above, but again, you need to find a reputable breeder who breeds for working ability and health. The german/european lines tend to be more favored for this type of work, but don't let that be the only thing you look for, as the dog itself (and it's close family) is much more important than the place it's line originated.

You need to consider your lifestyle (if you travel a lot, what will you do with the dog when you leave?.... are you in the military or any other line of work that lead to your having to relocate to a different area?... do you have a lot of people going in and out of your house... do you want a dog you can take everywhere with you, or will it be left at home?... do you have the amount of time it takes to for a lifetime of training if you decide to train the dog for PP?... these are just a few things to consider) and decide what breeds would best fit your life. What are you looking for in a dog, and what don't you want in a dog? Once you've figured that out, and narrowed it down to a few breeds, then go out to a show or trial and see them in action. Talk to people who own/train/work with them and see what they have to say. Meet the dogs themselves. After that, you should have no problem deciding what breed is best for you, and you'll have made some valuable resources for the future.

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jlong
Member

Posts: 23
From:Clintwood, Va, USA
Registered: Apr 2003

posted 04-08-2003 11:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jlong   Click Here to Email jlong     Edit/Delete Message
goob
Thank you
Finally a good suggestion.

[This message has been edited by Auspetian (edited 04-11-2003).]

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PITBULL_PRINCESS1979
Member

Posts: 414
From:LOUISIANA,USA
Registered: Dec 2002

posted 04-09-2003 01:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for PITBULL_PRINCESS1979     Edit/Delete Message
jlong,
I ment no disrespect by any of my post.I am sorry if it sounded this way.I is completly you choice.i would check into German Shepards or you could always go to a local shelter and see what they have to offer.Again I am sorry if my post offended you.

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fluff N poofed
unregistered
posted 04-09-2003 04:05 PM           Edit/Delete Message
The problem with relying on a dog for protection is that a dog cannot defend itself against a gun. And in all honesty, no dog/alarm.gun will stop a person from breaking into your home if they really (and I mean really) want to.

I think, in your situation, if you already have presonal protection by the way of a gun, why not get a watch dog? Something that will bark and alert you in time to do something. In all honesty, a barking dog will scare off a burglar just as easy as one that is growling and snapping. Infact...a barking dog often gets rid of them quicker as it will get attention...and there are many breeds who are great watch dogs.

Good luck

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Doc Helladay
unregistered
posted 04-10-2003 07:03 AM           Edit/Delete Message
Hello Jl, welcome to board. I have shown and raised dogs for over 30 years. With my experience with differet breeds and I also was a handler at one point. It sounds like you have both of best worlds a little dog hopefully a yaker to let you know if someone is outside and you have size with your boxer. We live in the country on 5 acres, when we built it yrs back and maybe you might want to consider this, we put in a commercial burgular alarm with even infr-red outside. Its better than a dog, and it is 24/7 hooked up through police and fire dept. We have a small dog now, and trust me I have been down many roads with per say guard type dogs, even though they were show dogs for conformation and not aggressive. Back in the 70's alot of people were gunho on wanted the as you call it the ultimate guard dog. People found out the hard way that they had made terrible mistakes in doing so. You can take 200 dogs of the same breed maybe only 1 out of the 200 will be that guard dog, and I mean 1 and it might come with extensive long term training. Dogs naturaly know no matter what the breed is, if you know your dog well enough they are a key alarm to its owner I know you are not using the word attack here and asked your question very gently but I know that is probably what you are looking for ONE TRAINED TO ATTACK ON COMMAND if you have a burglar...Downside of this is most of these types of dogs, dont even live with general type families. Here is a good example for you, for blind people they maybe work with 100 dogs for blind people it is possible not 1 out of the 1st hundred will work... those are the odds.. but atleast they have had alot of training and time..maybe look into some of these dogs that didnt work out.. I am sure it would be a very loyal dog..well good luck, I sure hope you find another route and maybe buy some 2 million degree pepper spray.. That is what I have due to I cannot get to my gns. either due to I have a young grandchild in my house..they are all locked up..
you take care, and dont let the boogie man's get the best of ya.
Doc2003~

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