Joined: 13 Feb 2005 Posts: 1945 Location: Surrey, UK
Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 12:18 pm Post subject:
Oh and for Sara, just because I dont agree with most of what you say doesnt mean I dislike you, I dont know you personally what I know about you is from reading your posts. We have very different experiences with just about everything theres been a discussion on and the advice or suggestions usually do differ significantly. When you dont agree with someone elses post, it really DOES NOT MEAN that the other persons opinion or experience is WRONG or FALSE it just means it DIFFERS from your own...its not necessary to critisize other peoples opinions to get your own point across, that can get a little annoying, usually what I do if I dont agree with something someone else has said is simply add my own thoughts on the topic or maybe check out some websites for information, more knowledge is always a good thing, like this thread for instance, Ive read a lot in the last few days about dog fighting from all points of view....I knew a 'fair' bit about it due to the 'rescue' work Ive done....I know so much more about it now though....fact is no-one knows everything, even experts on any given subject will say theres always more for them to learn, what Ive noticed through life in general though is the people who proclaim to know absolutely everything saying there is nothing else to learn are usually not experts at all.
We do all have some very different experiences no doubt...
DeLaUK now that you've gotten some of this new information do you still feel QUITE the same about the subject as you did before the new found knowledge? I know I changed my thoughts on the whole breed as I learned more about "matching" and how responsible Pit Breeders did it back in the day...
Joined: 13 Feb 2005 Posts: 1945 Location: Surrey, UK
Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 5:34 pm Post subject:
I can see more clearly the difference between what some would call a respectable breeder doing what he or she does to preserve the breed and keeping it to its true form, keeping the bloodline small scale and not sold around to just whoever wants that bloodline in their stock for their own personal egotistical satisfaction, I saw a couple of statements saying that these 'dogmen' usually do not have audiences and no money is involved apart from stud fees and purchhase fees. It appears...from what Ive read...that these breeders are few and far between.
For as long as I can remember whenever Ive seen a dog hanging for an hour from a tree or pulling heavy weights across a yard or 'chasing' a caged cat or possum from a treadmill I have assumed that the dog has been in training to fight, I never thought that just a treadmill in itself was a 'sure sign' as I know a number of people that do use them for their dogs to exercise on and the dogs look like they are loving every minute of it, I had a friend tell me that his dog would jump and bark at him at the mill until he turned it on....his dog was a pointer, but a combination of all and more has lead me to believe that they were fighters, but now...I read a lot about weight pulling etc, whether the reports or interviews I read were honest I dont know, Ill take it as I read it, I dont find it hard to believe that a lot of owners want the 'gameness' but would not ever put their dogs in a pit. I totally understand the admiration in the conformation, as I do in watching dogs at most activities, one of my personal favourites is agility....nothing quite like watching a Border Collie zoom around an agility course, or a well bred Rott at a show.
I read a lot about the history also, I brought up something earlier that someone mentioned "it was man that made it illegal" (fighting), it seems as though this breed was only 'created' specifically for fighting as a working class rebellion when bull baiting was outlawed in UK. How sad that in the supposedly civilized countries we live in now do people still want them rip each other apart when they have so many other amazing qualities.
Has all my 'new found knowledge' on this this changed my mind on how I feel about dog fights, or about the people who breed them, train them, sell them whatever 'class' theyre in...not one bit.
I see your differentiation most certainly and I am willing to bet that this is exactly what the goal was in most posts regarding the "fighting" of the breed... The point is that you understand the desires and you understand the breeders who are breeding true... That's GREAT!!!
You mention dogs hanging from trees for hours etc... Couldn't tell if that was a negative or not...but I would like to point out that protection dogs...GSD's and those that are employed in the job ANd participate in the sport love it as much as the pointer loved the mill and the lab loves to fetch... Love it to the point of wearing teeth down nearly to the gum for that beloved bite on the sleeve of the decoy etc... For me this is barbaric as fighting dogs for the most part...(no blood or true injury per se...but the correlation can be made) but it seems many people don't realize that the dogs ENJOY the activity when they have been selective bred to do so... Not saying that to deny the dogs is cruel by any means...not at all...but to me for it to be considered cruelty when done properly and responsibly is a little lost on me... The dogs enjoy it...can be parted safely and don't have to roll till fatal or near fatal injuries occure... I'm not sure if you were meaning to make that correlation or were making the opposite one or not that one at all...but I think it's possible to see it...
AGAIN...just becuase they may enjoy it doesn't mean I beleive that all of them do it or that anyone besides responsible, knowledgeable, and experienced breeders...and even then it's an illegal activity so...well...no one should really do it ...and I certainly couldn't stomach it.
The problem with enjoying something is not being aware of the consequences.
A dog may love to fight. The tails wagging, they just can't wait to get started, but, the dog does not understand consequence.
He doesn't know that after he's done doing something he enjoys he may have broken limbs, massive wounds, a head the size of a pumpkin, he may die.
My one year old loves to climb the stairs, but he doesn't know the consequence of his action. He'll fall backwards and breck his neck, knock himslef out, land on the concrete below.
That is why we have the bigger brain to know better. That is why we never chose to put our dogs in that situation.
Good point... however if our brains are that much better and bigger then why did the sport ever thrive...why do we box which is a similar sport... Consequence though is a very good point...
Too bad consequence is losing it's meaning these days...if it had as much as it should people wouldn't wonder around with a bite sized morsel tagging along behind un-restrained and helpless.
Joined: 13 Feb 2005 Posts: 1945 Location: Surrey, UK
Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 8:38 pm Post subject:
About the hanging off trees.... when I was a kid I used to think, like a lot of people that the dogs jaws locked...(repeat...when I was a kid ) and that people did something to clamp their jaws shut into the tree , thats what Id been told... I used to think people were cruel for that...once I realized that the wasnt the case I just figure that if they want to let go they can,(Staffs at the time)
Ive done protection and agitation training but not what I think of as 'hard core' (usually German) stuff that Ive seen on video, a guy I went to years ago with a couple of dogs, one of them my own, he trained dogs for the air force for 40 years, mostly it was a lot of agitation, he never hit the dogs with a pole and never hung them but I know that a lot of the dogs that are used are high risk, some potentially deadly to anyone other than the handler...Im not involved in it personally now although Id like to get into back into more search and maybe try tracking sometimes over the next year or so.
I dont know how many times weve had to fix fractured legs, do skin grafts, try and patch up what bits of pads we have left to work with and various other treatments on dogs that have jumped out of car window or out the backs of trucks...and almost every single time as the owner is leaving with their bandaged and splinted dogs they say...."well he learnt his lesson...he wont do it again" !!!!!!
Sara-quote.............Good point... however if our brains are that much better and bigger then why did the sport ever thrive..............................
A well-publicised case also highlights the obvious connection between animal abuse and the abuse of vunerable humans. This was the case of two 10-year old boys, Robert Thompson and Jon Venables, abusing, torturing and murdering Jamie Bulger, a 2-year old, in Merseyside, England:
This happened at theBootle New Strand Shopping Centre (in Liverpool, Merseyside) I used to go shopping there every Wednesday with my daughter before this happened. My sisters friend at the time worked at Bootle police station.....when one the mothers was interviewed she stated that the family dog had recently had a litter of puppies, one by one the puppies disappeared. At the same time there were what was left of animals remains that had been tied to a local railway line and run over by trains, same railway line that they found Jamies body on.. No one questioned where the puppies were disappearing to....I just read a report about the way young children are desensitized to violence through watching cocks and dog fights in Mexico......infuriating and sickening.
(off topic a bit) did you know that Venebles and Thompson were released, I think the beginning of last year, they were given new identities and dont live around Liverpool.
I think the comment about mexico is quite funny any ways , hear say isn't always as it is. My family is from mexico and none of my kids were allowed to watch such things or anyone else in our family.
Some times what goes on in mexico is what happens here in the USA
I don't know why or who told you that people do that to children some children may watch because this could happen in the open just as it could happen here in the USA but having family from a ranch in mexico I have never been exposed to anything like this and only seen it on the news here in the USA.
Dog fights do happen in mexico quite often because dogs have no boundaries in mexico and are left to roam free. Their soul perpose is to guard the ranches from animals coming down out of the mountains.
To watch over live stalk and are mainly used for work dogs.
Mistaken Identity is the biggest issue, and I wish that a Registered Breeder of Reg'd American Pit Bull Terriers who has been at this for a considerable amount of time would be the one determining WHAT bit a child or caused damage to another dog. Bites caused by Registered APBT'S is less than 1% in any statistic.
I refuse to believe that the Reg'd APBT regardless of Bloodline is responsible unless I see the dog and see the paperwork. I have gone to the dog control, the S.P.C.A.. I have seen these dogs that were apparently blood thirsty Pit Bulls. What were they? About 24 inches at the shoulder, bushy tails, lippy, with feet the size of plates. Many people think they are experts and know what they are talking about. I love running into those people, because they don't have a clue.
I have had to break up a fight between one of my dogs and a stray, un-leashed dog that ran into MY yard with its shackles up. Anybody that knows an APBT's fighting style, knows that it is just one big wrestling match full of, HOLDS. I had my breaking stick, determined where he was holding, and got him off, with no bite to me or anybody else.
No matter what breed ,no child under the age of 12 should EVER be left alone with an animal. I have four children. They have all shown conformation with APBT's, and are very dog proof. However, my dogs are my responsiblity. They do not feed my dogs, they do not let them out or take care of them. It is not their job. The closest they get to working with my dogs is after a work-out when they are laying on the grass like alligators on their backs, tongues hanging out! My kids will drag them around the lawn with their flirt-poles still in their mouths.
Yes, we have evolved from the days when many things were legal. Aren't you glad your hand isn't cut off for stealing a loaf of bread?( I don't steal bread for the record)
Discussions could go on forever about dog fighting, tempermants of dogs, BSL... The fact of the matter is about 75% of APBT owners shouldn't have them. I help run shows with about 125 dogs per day. I do alot of educating. Our Fun Show days are for un-reg'd dogs, mix-breds, and altered dogs. My voice is hoarse after THAT day. I know what I'm dealing with. Alot of people with no common sense, no idea about how to care for a dog, let alone an APBT. But, we keep them coming, because whatever their dog does is going to affect the reg'd Stock. I know there is a bad apple in every basket and breeding isn't fool proof, especially when you're not breeding for the right reasons.
It is up to everybody to be an Ambassador of your dog. Love, care, train your pet to be a healthy member of this world. There are some terrible parents out there who don't know a thing about parenting, and some awful owners who don't know a thing about responsible ownership.
I agree with you I went rounds with the vet said my pit looks sharpei lol so yea I think that I will be looking for a vet here who specializes in pits personal because it is important to me she gets the care she needs not saying that vet couldnt care for my dog just from him arguing with me was enough to make me swich dr's.
Joined: 13 Feb 2005 Posts: 1945 Location: Surrey, UK
Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 8:54 pm Post subject:
What I said was that I had just read a report about kids watching fights in Mexico, I never said it didnt happen any where else, I saw it on a small scale...in the streets and not with Pit Bulls in UK in the70's, usually a couple of kids, sometimes adults, winding their dogs up and taking bets on them while the dogs fought.
There was a point to why I brought that up...maybe you missed it.
Im happy for you that your kids didnt witness it, more happy for your kids, however my ex-husband is Mexican and some of his relatives (some of who still live there) tell a different story. Because you yourself havent seen something or may not know about it doesnt mean it doesnt exist.
Dog fights happen everywhere due to dogs roaming the streets, Mexico is one of the countries where "Dog Fighting" (in the context of this thread) is still legal.
What I said was that I had just read a report about kids watching fights in Mexico, I never said it didnt happen any where else, I saw it on a small scale...in the streets and not with Pit Bulls in UK in the70's, usually a couple of kids, sometimes adults, winding their dogs up and taking bets on them while the dogs fought.
There was a point to why I brought that up...maybe you missed it.
Im happy for you that your kids didnt witness it, more happy for your kids, however my ex-husband is Mexican and some of his relatives (some of who still live there) tell a different story. Because you yourself havent seen something or may not know about it doesnt mean it doesnt exist.
Dog fights happen everywhere due to dogs roaming the streets, Mexico is one of the countries where "Dog Fighting" (in the context of this thread) is still legal.
Where my family is from people go to jail for killing animals.
Dogs are valued but not part of the family and this could be more in the city of which you are speaking of where they try and lower the amount of dogs that are in the city where they dont care as much or need animals around.
But on the ranch the dogs are very valubal as far as protection of live stalks.
Police tend to get more involved when someone calls it in.
And my family who are still in mexico are from san luis potosi on a ranch.
They do rodeos and ride their bulls but they dont bull fight , cock fight, or dog fight.
I was just trying to say it doesnt happen every where in mexico but yes in some parts it may happen.
i have a Boudreaux/ blue mix she is about 3 months old i came to this site to learn more about what she is the more i get angry at these dumb southren morons i have no issues with take out a human but i will not hurt a .
the dog fighter never have to worry about turning them in i wont ill make sure they'll never host another fight ill drop them in the pit my self
im so glad i was born a yankee its no wonder the south lost
Joined: 19 Mar 2004 Posts: 149 Location: Tennessee
Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:33 am Post subject:
Sara wrote:
I want to make a point that also Floyd Boudreaux was breeding or at least was likely to be involved in the dogs back in the day when Dog Fighting wasn't exactly a crime (although the sport was never really legal)... He is and was a "dogman" so it does make a ton of sense that he would in fact have a line of dogs used for dog fighting... I'm sure Colby dogs are still out there with game lines as well... Colby dogs are seen in dog fight books as are Boudreaux dogs. Whether Boudreaux sold knowingly to dog fighters and didn't mind it...is rather moot. The point here is what legally is Boudreaux really responsible for? At this point...it's really hard to say.
I will come out with it that conformationally, tempermentally, and competitively in WP or Catch work...I would seek out a gamebred pit. I've met them and I like them and I appreciate them. The reason I love the breed in particular has everything to do with what they were bred to do and NOTHING to do with any sadistic nature to watch them rip apart a cat... Baiting was generally something NOT done by dogmen, rather, TESTING was done between an unproven match dog and a proven, often larger, older dog...
Have any of you folks looked to see what exactly a dog fight consisted of in the "golden" years for this breed? Dog Fights conducted by respected dog men?
It's funny that we can watch film and tape after tape of horses running races with legs dangling, or "confiscate" drug after drug used on race horses... We can knowingly put two year old horses on a race track for the sake of money regardless of how much pain he is in ...or would be in if it weren't for one or two cut nerves... Common practice in the big money races is drug them up, make them nuts and turn-em loose... Is that sadistic? It's legal...and respected and we all cheer for the horses doing it or involved in it???
Broken necks, legs etc... even humans enjoy partaking in the sport...anorexic, diabetic, anemic, men careening down a track on a 1200 lb horse who is feeling no pain and in a craze... Jockey's don't have much insurance, no salary, and they participate or turn a blind eye to the practices of trainers, vets, and owners that COULD be considered sadistic in order to have a minute or two of pleasure living on the edge of death... Broken bones galore... Joints of big money race horses are all but gone by the age of 5...so pain for the rest of the horse's life... The low horse's on the totem are even more abused if you will...
WHat about Rodeo stock...cowboys... Could we call them sadistic animal abusers??? Maybe we should...
What about show jumpers...MAKING the poor horses jump 6 foot high fences etc...
How about...anyone riding a horse...how cruel to strap a saddle on their backs and make them carry you around...
"Sadistic" is subjective and the point of the thread isn't wether dog fighting is wrong or forgiveable...I beleive the point is to keep an eye on things and see just what legally they have on Floyd and his son and if they can make it stick... Right?
Havent read the whole thread.. havent been on in a few years.. Sara, i never thought about it the way you posted it.. I dont agree with the backyard, street dog fighting that goes on today.. not quite old enough to see how it was done back in the day.. Dog fighting is dog fighting, but i would like to believe that it wasnt done like it is today, back then.. I totally agree with the other animal sports you stated though.. that goes for Hog Catching as well if you think about it.. not saying that i believe all Animal Sports to be sadistic.. but you cant condem one and appreciate the others when the animals are still going through pain and torment for the entertainment of humans...
not saying that i believe all Animal Sports to be sadistic.. but you cant condem one and appreciate the others when the animals are still going through pain and torment for the entertainment of humans...
This was my main point in that post... I think the sports are generally fine, but there's a line that people cross in all those sports I mentioned and more. Unfortunately the pit bull breed has been so vilified that it seems there's no crueler sport on the planet when in fact ALL sports using animals can be just as cruel and sometimes even more cruel than dog fighting... Seems like people forget about that as long as the animals involved in the abuse are quiet and don't have teeth or don't make headlines/money
since this thread was started Floyd and his son are both free men. Judges found that there wasn't sufficient evidence against either one of them. Some 50+ good dogs are dead because people jumped to arrest the two of them and even the non dog evidence wasn't enough... Meaning the men were NOT involved in dog fighting or breeding APBT's for the purpose of dog fighting.
since this thread was started Floyd and his son are both free men. Judges found that there wasn't sufficient evidence against either one of them. Some 50+ good dogs are dead because people jumped to arrest the two of them and even the non dog evidence wasn't enough... Meaning the men were NOT involved in dog fighting or breeding APBT's for the purpose of dog fighting.
Joined: 19 Mar 2004 Posts: 149 Location: Tennessee
Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:23 am Post subject:
Sara wrote:
since this thread was started Floyd and his son are both free men. Judges found that there wasn't sufficient evidence against either one of them. Some 50+ good dogs are dead because people jumped to arrest the two of them and even the non dog evidence wasn't enough... Meaning the men were NOT involved in dog fighting or breeding APBT's for the purpose of dog fighting.
Damn HSUS they did same to Wildside dogs. The people should pay not the dogs. I understand if there is no place for them or more "adoptable dogs" in any scenario including puppy mill, hoarders, ect. But when there is a rescue with funds, foster homes, willing to pay all expenses there is NO reason not to let them assess the dogs and decide which are adoptable and which are not. My heart goes out to Floyd and his family. I'm glad him and Guy got their innocence as they deserved but it is a shame the dogs paid the cost for being Pit Bulls. This won't be the last of this sort. There has already been other cases with innocent people, not like Wildsides or those who are public fighting figures but people who just own Pit Bulls. Ordinary law abiding pet owners who's dogs have been killed and they are either found not guilty or never formerly charged at all. AC takes the dogs and any dog related item, kills the dogs and that is the end of it. They are getting too much power and going OUTSIDE of the law themselves.
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) and that people did something to clamp their jaws shut into the tree 
, thats what Id been told... I used to think people were cruel for that...once I realized that the wasnt the case I just figure that if they want to let go they can,(Staffs at the time)
My kids will drag them around the lawn with their flirt-poles still in their mouths.
