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| Author | Topic: Pitbull Behavior |
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puggleowner Member  Posts: 228 |
posted 12-08-2003 12:43 PM
 
Ok- I know this may be a touchy subject for some, but I am really curious about this: Is it true that almost all pitbulls, whether bred to fight or not, are innately (sp) aggressive, and can strike at any time if "provoked," or does it just depend on how they were raised? I ask because I am one to believe that any dog can be raised to be certain way, for the most part, but I have had several bad experiences with pitbulls- I was at a dog "play" group with Cameron on one occassion, and a pitbull for no apparent reason other than he didn't want to play, grabbed onto a french bulldog's neck and wouldn't get go until pried away by it's owner. (the french bulldog, luckily, was quite fat and thus didn't get any damage beyond some bruised skin). On another occasion, Cam and I were at a dog park, and I watched in fear for my little Cameron, who can be very curious and sometimes annoying to other dogs, as a pitbull got into fights with other dogs on at least 5 different occasions, and had to be pulled away by it's owner. In both of these situations, the pitbulls were family dogs and had what seemed to be very nice owners, so is the aggression just something that is part of being a pitbull? Or can they be brought up to be just as gentle as a golden retriever, for example? I've wondered about this on several occassions, and reading the recent posts regarding pitbulls made me think about it. IP: Logged |
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dukesdad Member Posts: 117 |
posted 12-08-2003 01:02 PM
There seems to be a trend to ban Pitbulls from dog parks. A recent survey went out from the National Recreation and Park Association asking for information on this subject. I will post any information I receive. I peronally would not risk allowing Duke to come into contact with an unrestrained Pitbull. Not worth the risk. IP: Logged |
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Maisey Member Posts: 1387 |
posted 12-08-2003 01:16 PM
I'm not an expert on Pit Bulls, but it is my opinion that most of the time it is how the dog is raised. Just because a dog is raised in a family...doesn't mean it was trained properly. I think that Pit bulls used to be bred to be dog aggressive for fighting purposes, but not people aggressive because they didn't want the dog going off on a handler. How an animal is bred, ANY animal, has alot to do with it's temperment. I'm not sure about the qualities being bred into the PitBull today, but I know that many are bred for protection work and hunting. I do believe there are many many BYB of this dog, and many people who still breed for fighting. I think, as with any dog, the quality and experience of the breeder is paramount. There are many breeds of dogs that were bred for protection work or fighting, the Doberman was bred solely for that purpose and I remember when I was a kid, the same things that are being said about the Pit Bull now, were being said about the Dobie. The Shar pei was originally bred as war dogs, then for fighting, you don't hear people talking about how dangerous they are, my dog is half Shar-pei and I have had more than one trainer tell me he would be very difficult to train and that I should be very watchful of his temperment. I think each dog should be looked at individually. How a dog acts with people does not indicate how it will act with other dogs and vica versa. That applies to any dog from a Poodle to a PitBull. People should not allow their dogs to run up to other dogs, or behave rudely. Too many people do not understand or interpret dog behavior and body language correctly. In those cases where people say..."for no apparent reason so ans so attacked so and so.." I would guess there was a reason, that person just didn't see it. Dogs communicate very subtly, humans don't. I think it is Goob who has alot of great information on Pit Bulls, maybe he can correct anything I said that is not right and add his thoughts here. IP: Logged |
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Maisey Member Posts: 1387 |
posted 12-08-2003 01:20 PM
Dukesdad, I wouldn't let my dogs come into contact with any unrestrained dog, dogs should be introduced to each other on neutral ground and safely. I don't go to dog parks for that reason. IP: Logged |
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honeybear Member Posts: 926 |
posted 12-08-2003 01:53 PM
Off the subject a little bit. I used to go to the dog park occasionally with Wylie and Jake and there was always this aggressive lab mix. lOoked like the cutest dog, but it would get aggresive with Wylie and she hated it and the people didnt restrain their dog fromt his behavior. I swear I thought the dog lived there because it seemed like he was always there. So then then I would go the park when no-one was there and she wouldnt have anything to do with it. She would immediately run to the gate wanting to go. SO am careful with all dogs. Thae my moms shitzu I am surpised no-one has been bitten the way she acts. Honeybear IP: Logged |
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neek Member Posts: 291 |
posted 12-08-2003 01:54 PM
Maisey is right in saying that pitbulls are dog but not human aggressive as, yes, they had to let any handler near the dog after a fight to check 'battle scars' and the like. The instinct to be aggressive to other animals is in EVERY pitbull, it's the responsible owners that curb their behaviour by not letting them get into fights in the first place. Most APBT's won't bite a person unless it has been taught to by it's BAD owner, or unless it is threatened to bite, EG bashed, kicked. Anybody who does those things to any dog deserves to be bitten anyway. It is the APBT's willingness to please their owners so much that they will attack on command, if trained to. Bad owners know this, and use the APBT's brute strength to their advantage. I've seen a couple of owners that let their APBT attack other dogs and watch the whole thing without stepping in till the last second!! Some even train their pits to attack people as it makes them feel more powerful. Then the DOG is taken to be destroyed!! They are the main reasons pitbulls are being sought after and banned from certain areas. It makes me sick! The dog dosen't know any better, why not throw irresponsible owners in jail and let them suffer??? IP: Logged |
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dukesdad Member Posts: 117 |
posted 12-08-2003 02:10 PM
Maisey, I'll have to admit Dukesmom gets too nervous to go with us to the lake but since it is neutral ground and only responsible dog people would go to the trouble to travel to a dog park we have a great time. Mostly Labs and Goldens and other water loving dogs at this area and they all get along great. I take Duke out every weekend and he can't wait to hit the water with his party friends. In over six months I have not noticed one agressive act. Maybe it's just a Lab thing to get along with the world. IP: Logged |
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Maisey Member Posts: 1387 |
posted 12-08-2003 03:11 PM
Dukesdad...I think you have been lucky, I would not assume that only responsible owners will take the time to travel to the dog park, I take my dogs to alot of dog events and we compete in flyball, you would think someone who spends that much time and money in training would be responsible with their dogs. Or that someone who has that much experience with dogs would know better than to bend over and put their face in a strange dogs face. It happens all the time. I see peopel at events who let their dogs climb all over other dogs on leashes, they themselves will stoop over a strange dog and reach for it. Just because someone loves doing stuff with their dog and will travel to do it, doesn't mean that they have sense or the experience to know how to behave around a dog or how to keep their dog minding it's manners. I also think it is a shame to assume that "good" dogs will play and be nice to everyone and every dog.(not that you did) People do it all the time though. A man at a flyball tournament approached my dog, who I had on a leash standing with me while my team was having a meeting. The man walked up behind me and squated down next to my dog, he put his face right in the dogs and started petting him in a familiar rough way...Witt growled and tried to back away from him, at which point I realized the man was on his knees behind me. For soooo many reasons this was stupid on his part. He did not know me or my dog, he was on his knees and would not have been able to react quickly if something had happened. His response was, as he struggled to get up quickly, "oh your dog is not friendly!". MY DOG IS FRIENDLY!!! when approached by someone with manners! What shocked me to learn about this person was that he breeds and raises Australian Shepherds. You would think he would know the basics ...but that obviously wasn't the case. It's easy to fall into the trap of thinking because your dog is really good around other dogs and doesn;t mind being accosted by strangers that every dog is the same. Is Dukesmom your wife? [This message has been edited by Maisey (edited 12-08-2003).] IP: Logged |
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goob Member Posts: 552 |
posted 12-08-2003 04:17 PM
quote: It depends on whether you're speaking in terms of dog (dog on dog) aggression or in terms of human (dog on human) aggression. Since just about every pit bull today is decended from fighting dogs in some way shape, or form (some more closely than others), most share similar traits born from the breed's days as a fighting breed. "Normal" pit bulls have a tendency towards dog aggression, this trait usually manifests itself between the ages of 8 months and 3 yrs, but can "appear" at any age. In some dogs, the change is gradual, an increasing intolerance towards other dogs, in others, it's sudden, a little disagreement, and the dog is "on" immediately, even though they were just playing seconds before. There are also varying levels of dog aggression in APBTs, from dogs who won't pick fights, but also will not back down from challenges; to dogs that screech and scream everytime they see another dog because they want so badly to get to them. Also because of their fighting dog past, most APBTs are adept fighters, and will quickly gain the upper hand if they end up in a fight with another dog, and in most cases, will have to be physically seperated from the other dog. The other end of the APBT's fighting breed history is that human aggression was not well tolerated in fighting dogs. If you look at the life of a fighting dog back then, you can see why. These dogs' owners/handlers put them through intensive exercise regimens (is that a word??) to get them to as light a weight as possible without them losing strength. Then before a fight, the dogs were washed by the opposing dog's handler (to be sure there weren't any foul tasting substances on their coats), so they had to be comfortable with even strangers handling them. During a fight, the handlers were in the ring with the dogs, along with a referee, and the dogs were usually broken up several times during the fight, so they had to be able to reach down over/around the dogs to use the parting sticks and get them away from each other (as you probably know, it's common for people to get bitten tryign to break up most dog fights, so the APBT's strong bit einhibition was especially important for this part) without the dogs lashing out at them. After a fight, the dogs had to recieve medical care, get their injuries tended to, etc. There were a lot of reasons for manbiting fighting dogs not to be tolerated, as as such, just about any APBT that bit a person (or even growled, any signs of human aggression) were culled. This intensive culling led to the breed being one of the most solid there is with people (though there are exceptions, as in any breed).
quote: quote: Both these situations sound fairly normal for a mature pit bull (or most bull breeds). I have no problem admitting that the breed (with the possible exception of a few individuals who are COMPLETELY non-dog aggressive) is not cut out for playgroups with strange dogs and dog parks. While I'm sure the owners were very nice, IMO, they probably had done very little research on the breed, and the second one was acting completely irresponsible in allowing her dog to stay at the dog park even after it had already gotten into several fights.
quote: To sum up my big long answer above... dog aggression often is, but human aggression is NOT and should NOT be considered normal.
quote: I don't think it's accurate nor fair to make blanket comparisons between breeds, as there are so many variations even within a breed that it can be hard to come to a simple yes/no answer. In comparing the "average" APBT to the "average" pet golden, I'd say that they are just as trustworthy with people (in some cases/situations, more so than goldens, IMO)... in most situations with dogs, I'd say the golden is more trustworthy.
quote: As a pit bull owner, I would have no problem with this. Dog parks, with most having sometimes dozens of dogs at a time, with very little structure, rules, etc, are not a good place for most APBTs.
quote: None of our dogs, including our two pit bulls, are allowed to come in contact with unrestrained, loose, uncontrolled dogs. It's definitely not worth the risk that that particular dog may not be friendly, so with the exception of a few dogs we know (their owners as well), we keep them away from strange, off-leash dogs.
quote: There are some being bred for "protection" work (mostly by BYBs and/or people who don't understand what the breed's temperament is supposed to be like), but the majority of APBTs are not good guard dogs, going back to what I said above about biting people. Some do well at "protection sports" like Schutzhund, etc, because they work primarily in prey drive, and it's viewed as a game, with the sleeve/suit being a toy... but there are few APBTs out there doing that type of work at this point. Hog hunting, etc is common in the south, but less common the farther north you go (lack of hogs, perhaps  ), so again, while it is something APBTs do, not a primary purpose (I would guess more pit bulls out there right now are just "pets" than anything else). The rest of your post was spot on though, especially this: "In those cases where people say..."for no apparent reason so ans so attacked so and so.." I would guess there was a reason, that person just didn't see it.".
quote: Don't be so sure The only dog ever to have outright attacked my older pit bull was/is a lab. He came flying across his yard from behind a car (we were in our own yard, Goo was on-leash) and grabbed Goo on the nose, then proceeded to follow us, snarling and snapping, as I backed up with Goo pinned between my knees, trying to keep him from grabbing her and vice versa. Do I think ALL labs are this way? No... but there are labs out there with crappy temperaments, just like any other breed, and when coupled with irresponsible owners (like this lab's owners), they can cause as much trouble as any other breed with the same. IP: Logged |
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goob Member Posts: 552 |
posted 12-08-2003 04:39 PM
BTW, our two APBTs are dog aggressive, one only in certain situations (she escalates into fighting from playing, she'll fight if challenged, or if corrected when trying to establish herself as dominant, she'll also redirect onto the other dogs when she gets excited, which usually results in a fight), the other is very dog aggressive with almost all dogs unless we introduce them in the house, then she accepts them, though she may never "like" them. It's interesting to note that our Dachshund is also dog aggressive, more so than one of the APBTs. Here are some pics (yes, more pics L-R, Annie, Goo, Haley. Haley is ALWAYS closely supervised when around the other dogs; and Goo isn't left alone with them, because of the huge size difference between her and the little dogs, if they pushed her far enough that she snapped at them, she could easily hurt them. Playing tuggie Lounging in the yard Surrounded Giving kissies Obviously horribly intolerant of the eveil bug on her back IP: Logged |
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honeybear Member Posts: 926 |
posted 12-08-2003 04:49 PM
Good your pictures are adorable. I love the one of goo playing tug of war with Annie. Honeybear IP: Logged |
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Maisey Member Posts: 1387 |
posted 12-08-2003 07:26 PM
Thanks Goob, I knew your explanation would be good. The reason I said protection work is because when I do a search on Pit Bulls on the web, much of what I get seems to be either slimey druggie looking owners who obviously use them for fighting...or I see sites where they are using them for schutzhund, which I thought was basically training them for protection work. I'll admit I don't know much about it at all. I also see alot of sites for weight pull. I know someone who does french ring with her pit bull...but I don't know anything about that either. Of course since alot of what I read is on catahoulas which are prevelant in the south and usually coupled with Pit bulls being used as catch dogs for huntiing hogs...I think of them used that way. IP: Logged |
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susan_cude@hotmail.com Member Posts: 813 |
posted 12-08-2003 09:52 PM
I had a pitt, when I was very young. She was the sweetest thing, but she could not be around "ANY" other animals at all. She even went after a horse once. But she was very good with humans. You just never know! with any dog, be safe, not sorry. My Casey is a Mini Dauchshund, it took her a while to warm up to Freebie (Shitz-zhu) Does anyone else here watch Animal Cops (or something like that, on the animal channel) it's a good but sad show. The one good thing is, they make the owner pay for abbusing the animals..that part I like! Susan IP: Logged |
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MaydaysMom Member Posts: 260 |
posted 12-09-2003 12:46 AM
Goob that picture of Annie on Goo's back is too cute. Tootsie used to do that to Sade. I wish I had a picture of that to remind me. IP: Logged |
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puggleowner Member Posts: 228 |
posted 12-09-2003 05:42 AM
Thanks everyone for your responses- I feel like I have more insight on the topic now. I never thought about the human verses animal aggression in pitbulls- now that I think about it, it is true that I've never witnessed or heard about any pitbull incidents with other people, just other dogs. I do think that pitbulls should probably not be brought to play groups or dog parks where they will be bombarded by so many other animals, just to be on the safe side, like some of you mentioned. Also, Susan, I also watch animal cops- it makes me cry sometimes but it is so great when they catch the abuser! Thanks again everyone for all your thoughts. IP: Logged |
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khandi New Member  Posts: 5 |
posted 12-11-2003 09:45 AM
i used to live in a college apt. complex and there was a Male pitbull dog that the owners just used to let run free. Dangerous I know, but my point is this- that pitbull was THE nicest dog i have ever met. You could do just about anything to that do and it would not but or even growl. it was very laid back and playful. On the other hand my dog at home is half boxer/pitbull. he does have some aggressive behavior. He,however, has never bitten anyone, he just growls and is very possessive of his food. I believe that each dog, pitbull or not, has there own personalities just like people. IP: Logged |
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little0ne New Member Posts: 7 |
posted 02-19-2004 05:28 PM
I don't think Pits are going to attack. Mine has been looking for a friend to play with. However, all the dogs he has been intorduced to seem to instantly hate him. The other dog is the one showing aggression. My pit just runs and tries to hide behind me. He has been in a fight. He was attacked by another dog. He didn't fight back. He just tried to run and was very scared and confused by the situation. IP: Logged |
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PinkPoodleSparkles Member Posts: 67 |
posted 02-19-2004 05:47 PM
I have 3 pitbulls at my dads house and have been there with them since each of their births... They have never been aggressive towards anyone but other dogs that wonder into the yard and growl at them. There was this little girl that was visiting her grandparents next door and she brought her shitzu with her and was playing in the yard with her dog, and the dog and the little girl came over into our yard and Butch, Midnight, and Buster all went over there first they licked the little girl then they proceeded to play with the dog. Midnight prefered to lay in the girls lap while Buster and Butch took turns chasing the shitzu around, and vice versa, with a ball. They never even growled ONCE. The only time they have been aggressive is when this mutt from down the road just strolled into the yard growling and barking at Buster, and it was right after Midnight had her puppies, so Buster growled back and the dog left. No fight no nothing. My uncle Mitch, against my better judgement,raises pitbulls and fights them. All of his dogs arent aggressive and mean, just a few. There are some that are aggressive like this only because they have been fighting to survive their whole life, BUT what dog in its right mind wouldnt fight like that if they had gone thru the same thing? People take a few bad apples and try and shut down the whole orchard. Its stupid, but understandable in some circumstances. But to answer the question.. get a puppy and let it grow with your child. They are generally sweet kind animals and I would only be so lucky to have another one just so that Butch could play tag with them like he does his mom and dad! Stephanie IP: Logged |
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puggleowner Member Posts: 228 |
posted 02-19-2004 08:09 PM
Pink Poodle your uncle fights dogs? Oh that is so so so so bad!!! Have you ever considering "tipping" the authorities? It's not legal to dog fight in Georgia, right? IP: Logged |
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GoodboysBaddogs Member Posts: 409 |
posted 02-19-2004 09:26 PM
Alright... Okay... [This message has been edited by GoodboysBaddogs (edited 02-19-2004).] IP: Logged |
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GoodboysBaddogs Member Posts: 409 |
posted 02-19-2004 09:29 PM
Yeah, i'm a backer-upper of the understanding that any dog can be raised to be Lasie, Pitbull or not. 1) You'd have to start young (like 6 weeks). 2) Unconditional what? 3) Yes, GOOD LOVIN... 4) Don't ever stop w/ the lovin  5) Constant socialization & discipline (when appropriate). 6) Make sure the breeder you get it from has been doing the same for generations upon generations. 7) Don't ever let it get into a fight (basically don't give it a chance to "remember" who he/she "was"). Don't let a bad situation ruin all that you've worked for. 1 fight is all it takes! 8) He should be the Lasie you want it to be. 9) Otherwise, he's a "GoodboyBaddog" !!!10) Give him to me. 11) J/K. 12) Good Luck  IP: Logged |
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susan_cude@hotmail.com Member Posts: 813 |
posted 02-20-2004 12:22 AM
Hi! that was strange seeing my old post in there! Anyway! Steph, I can't believe your uncle fights pits! That is so cruel! I'm with Puggle on this one, find a way to turn him in without his knowing it was you... Sincerely, Susan IP: Logged |
) of Goo and Haley...
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