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Author | Topic: AKC Standards? |
dukesdad Member Posts: 117 |
posted 02-11-2004 09:52 AM
Enjoyed the Westminster show and was pulling for the Newfie. Glad he won. But yet another year the Golden and the Lab did not even make the cut in their group. There was an audible groan from the crowd when the judge passed them by. I know they don't give points for popularity but it does seem both breeds never show well at dog shows. Duke is an AKC registered Lab but I see a huge variation between most working Lab's and the AKC standard. Most Lab's I meet are much taller and have trim, powerful bodies as opposed to the broader, squat AKC standard. How does the AKC standard match up with your dog? IP: Logged |
honeybear Member Posts: 926 |
posted 02-11-2004 10:02 AM
The newfie was beautiful. If you noticed the trainer didnt even need to use treats to get him to pose. And then the sussex spanial kept sitting and wouldnt pose, even thought he was awesome looking, I understand that is a big part of what they look at so I dont understand how some make it and some dont. My husband used to show goldens and said it is very political. And as for AKC for labs. From what I understand there are 2 types, the show dog like my Jake, see his previous picture who is short, stocky, broad chest, and then the hunting labs which are like Duke, they are taller lankier, thinner and usually redder. honeybear IP: Logged |
dukesdad Member Posts: 117 |
posted 02-11-2004 10:41 AM
honeybear, I have also noticed that Chocolate Labs seem to be much larger and heavier than both black or yellow Labs. I have heard there is an English Lab variety that is usually very large. As a breed I think Labs can range from 65 to 130 pounds. IP: Logged |
Jamiya Member Posts: 1392 |
posted 02-11-2004 12:19 PM
I also have heard that dog shows are very political. Before we got Nala, when I was looking into breeds I was thinking of getting a papered dog and trying it out. Everything I read and heard made me decide it was not for me. I'll stick with agility, and who knows if I will ever really compete or not!
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MistressKela Member Posts: 275 |
posted 02-11-2004 12:20 PM
Who the hell came up with the standards for AKC and how often do they get revised? IP: Logged |
dukesdad Member Posts: 117 |
posted 02-11-2004 12:28 PM
MistressKela, They said last night at Westminster that each breed has an individual national association responsible for writing the breed standard. I suspect the politics start there. IP: Logged |
honeybear Member Posts: 926 |
posted 02-11-2004 01:04 PM
What I would like to see is a lot of the cropping tail docking done away with, an they say it has to start with the AKC And the association attached to that breed and that someone has to start so changes start occuring. I was so happy to see last night a dog in one of the last groups It was pretty big and long hair ( a bouviea)sp I think that didnt have its ears cropped which is standard for the breed. JMOI HOneybear IP: Logged |
MaryNH Member Posts: 240 |
posted 02-11-2004 03:56 PM
are there really any strong standards with the AKC? I say this cause my GSD was born from black/tan parents but she is whitest (lots of apricot) I could have registered her with the AKC if I had desired to (no desire to). You can buy a dog from a BYBer or puppy mill and still register with them AKC...so what standards do they actually set? IP: Logged |
3Dogsihave Member Posts: 156 |
posted 02-11-2004 04:16 PM
Mary I think they will register anything but you wouldent be able to show alot of them. I have two poms both registered but they wouldent meet the standards and would get laughed out of a show, I still love them. They are the fox looking ones not the little teddy bear ones. IP: Logged |
Jas Moderator Posts: 536 |
posted 02-11-2004 08:08 PM
We enjoyed Westminster too! Yes, showing *can* certainly be political, but not always. I always believe Form follows function and its sad to see breeds diving into show and working types. IMO a show dog should represent a type that enables the dog to do what it was bred for. IP: Logged |
MistressKela Member Posts: 275 |
posted 02-11-2004 08:18 PM
The biggest flaw I can see with saying the standard is the healthiest or best working version of the animal...is the fact that they limit the colors that an animal can be. For example...the parti colored poodle. Each and every single poodle color was "created" by breeders....its not like the poodle was running around wild in nature...why on EARTH should it take years for a new color to be accepted by the AKC? Its still the same dog. Same coat...same other physical standards... That really rubs me the wrong way about the AKC. IP: Logged |
susan_cude@hotmail.com Member Posts: 813 |
posted 02-11-2004 09:17 PM
Hi! My sister breeds Shi tzu's, my dog Freebie has papers on him. His granmother was a showdog. The only thing I liked about the papers, was how they show the bloodline and where he came from. I thought that was interesting! I couldn't care less other than that. But once about six months ago while on a road trip, I stopped at a McDonalds for some lunch, I had Casey with me.(the mini doxie) I took her out to do her business, and a man walked up to see her. He apparently breeds Doxie's, he went on and on about how pretty she was, and that for a mini, she's perfect! I guess mimi's sometimes don't have the pronounced features like a standard does, but he said she does. That made me feel good! You know how we love our pets!!! It made me feel proud! like I had something to do with it! NOT!!! Susan IP: Logged |
MistressKela Member Posts: 275 |
posted 02-11-2004 10:31 PM
Ok...heres another thing that bothers me...lets look at the English Bulldog. I LOVE these dogs..they are awesome. I can't name another breed that has more common health problems than this one. Short life span...extremely difficult to breed..respiratory problems....cherry eye super common... Now obviously the best examples of this breed shouldnt have any of these problems...but if all the dogs being bred to achieve the perfect "standard" of the breed have so many problems if they arent exactly up to the standard....thats just not cool. So many unhealthy dogs and vet bills and problems...I think that the AKC standard is either incredibly off....too crazy to adhere to....or they just plain shouldnt recognize a dog with such exaggerated features that so many health problems are caused. I would much rather see a slightly "uglier" version or a version with bigger hips in the show ring so that the average life span actually hits double digits. I didnt exactly word that perfectly..but hopefully you get what I mean. IP: Logged |
Maisey Member Posts: 1387 |
posted 02-11-2004 11:52 PM
Alot of Catahoula breeders that I have seen carry and little sign on their web sites that let people know they have no desire to have their breed an AKC registered breed. They have their own registry plus UKC. If you read the standard for a Catahoula, it's pretty straight forward, supports a conformation that allows the dog to do what it is bred for. A Catahoula can be any color or any combination of colors, diluted colors are frowned on because they do have health effects, and an excessive white is disqualified, also a health issue. Dogs should be shown in working condition it says. However...I think if you took a look at many catahoulas you would see pretty big variances... people still have preferences for body type for working, depending on their preference and what kind of work they are doing with the dog. I see pictures all the time of the Catahoula shows...they are WAY different looking then the AKC shows. They have conformation classes and working classes, which for this breed means treeing, bay pens, herding and the like. People aren't strutting around in suits! People with "conformation dogs" work their dogs and they take pride in showing off not just the make up of their dog physically but proving that it has what it takes to work with grit and intelligence. MistressKela..I understand what you are saying about colors, but in some breeds dilute colors, excessive white etc can cause genetic problems that will be carried on, and degrade the breed as a whole. A good case in point would be the white Doberman. People are so geared towards the new fashionable color or pattern or size they often don't consider what it will mean in the long run. I am guilty of loving the unusual colors and patterns, take a look at my dogs...but I don't want people to purposely breed excessive white catahoulas because they are flashy and will sell better, and I want educated people who understand the genetic consequences of breeding those dogs to be the ones who keep the breed alive and well. Just a side note...I would be way more excited watching a show that had Poodles showing hunting skills than showing off huge hair dos. I wish they would do that! [This message has been edited by Maisey (edited 02-12-2004).] IP: Logged |
goob Member Posts: 552 |
posted 02-12-2004 12:26 AM
I don't think the problem lies so much within the standards themselves as it does in the fact that it's so open for interpretation that these overly exaggerated dogs can easily become "better" in the eyes of some (including judges), and then become the norm for the show side of the breed. Of course, if you make the standard mroe specific, you may be excluding good dogs of the breed who aren't quite the type they decide should be "standard". I don't think it would be a bad idea for dogs to have to pass a working trial (suitable for their breed, of course) to be championed out, that would at least encourage breeders to get out and work their dogs, and dogs with gross exaggerations and/or faults that detracted from their ability to work would be sort of culled from the breeding program by way of not championing out (of course, that wouldn't stop BYBs, but still, anything helps). IP: Logged |
Jamiya Member Posts: 1392 |
posted 02-12-2004 06:49 AM
I second the notion of eliminating all the cropping and docking stuff. Why do people feel it is necessary to cut bits off dogs so that they look "better" to us? That's barbaric.
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Jas Moderator Posts: 536 |
posted 02-12-2004 09:10 AM
quote: I know in my breed coat color can limit function. A dog too light would stand out like a sore thumb and would be spotted instantainously. A dog too dark would not fair well in withstanding heat. IP: Logged |
Jamiya Member Posts: 1392 |
posted 02-12-2004 09:21 AM
Which breed is that, Jas?
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MistressKela Member Posts: 275 |
posted 02-12-2004 09:51 AM
The all white thing I understand. Hearing problems and other things like that...right? Any other color restriction is absolutely rediculous. Willing to bet that most "show champions" are not used daily for hunting purposes so color is irrelevant. A training or obedience trial of sorts in place of such rigid physical standards would make these dogs much more worthy. A show dog is nothing more than some nice looking dogs mating with a whole lotta luck that they get the right traits. Why give awards to these dogs? Make them work for it. Id much rather there be some other type of dog show NOT based on how they were born be the popular show of choice. At least the Miss America girls have to answer a question and probably work out daily to maintain their figures. Maybe only 50% of that competition is purely how they were born . IP: Logged |
Jamiya Member Posts: 1392 |
posted 02-12-2004 11:05 AM
And I bet some people would prefer to watch a beauty contest of dogs than watch them work. Everyone is different. At least there ARE other arenas to compete in - and some even allow mixed breeds. I'm not defending conformation shows - I do think they contribute to a lot of bad things done to dogs in the name of "beauty". I am simply pointing out the other side of the coin.
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Jas Moderator Posts: 536 |
posted 02-13-2004 12:13 PM
Jamiya: Ridgebacks. -------------------------- I highly disagree that color is of no importance that is an uninformed statement. A Ridgeback too light would not camouflage in the African terrain. These dogs are game hunters and family protectors where they are still used today. A black dog would attract too much heat and lack in performance. HENCE limit my breeds function, or should I rephrase that, limit one function of my breed. Look at any breed that has white in the coat and carry the genes for health issues (not just deafness). If a breeder is not selective with color the resulting offspring may develop more and more white. Color also helps keep breeds distinctive from other breeds aka type. I would question the breeder and the sire & dam if there were multitude of colors in the litters of some breeds. I recall reading somewhere dogs with Ticking present help to produce harder black claws and pads of the feet. That certainly could effect function. Besides color usually accounts for only a small % in the breed standard so definitely not the only thing to go by. IP: Logged |
Maisey Member Posts: 1387 |
posted 02-13-2004 12:24 PM
OOOO I didn't know you had Ridgebacks Jas. We saw one last night at Witt's flyball class, the caretaker for the arena we were at had one. It was a huge dog, I've only seen a couple but there was something about the dog that made me question if it were pb, the owner said yes, but in talking with my flyball captain, I said the tail looked docked really short and she said it was WAY too short. The dog also had a ..."tightness" about him that bugged me. He looked ucomfortable, like his skin was too tight or something. One of the other classmates said "wow he looks muscular" and at first glance he did give that impression, but the more I looked at him the more I thought something looked "off". My captain said if he was pb it was poor breeding, she said his head wasn't correct. Do you have pics you can post? I want to see now and compare. IP: Logged |
Jamiya Member Posts: 1392 |
posted 02-13-2004 12:54 PM
*scurries off to look up Ridgebacks*
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honeybear Member Posts: 926 |
posted 02-13-2004 01:20 PM
Maisey , they had one at the westminster show and it wasnt big at all. like a medium size dog and the tail wasnt cropped. tThe dont look anything like a pit I think. Maybe jas can fill us in honeybear IP: Logged |
Maisey Member Posts: 1387 |
posted 02-13-2004 01:34 PM
I refuse to get cable...so I didn't get to see it! Wahhhhhhhhh IP: Logged |
Maisey Member Posts: 1387 |
posted 02-13-2004 02:36 PM
I looked them up....not only do they have a full tail...but they top out at 70 pounds..this guy told me the dog weighed 150 pounds! He does look alot like the pics...but not enough that I think he is purebred or maybe just poorly bred, who knows? Either way I learned something new today about a breed. Still want to see pictures of your Jas...pretty please IP: Logged |
Jas Moderator Posts: 536 |
posted 02-13-2004 06:12 PM
At Westminster Gatsby the Ridgeback won a Group 2. he is a very nice representation of the breed and a BIS winning dog! The Ibizan named "Bunny" who won the group moved beautifully I thought! 150 Pounds!!!! wow !!! That is huge! Must have been a cross...... Mine usually weigh 65-95 pounds and have full tail (Viszlas usually have a 3/4 tail but are smaller than ridgebacks). A ridgeback doing fly ball...........hmmm that i would like to see! I'd be lucky to get my dogs to play ball or fetch more than twice. They like playing keep away on the other hand I haven't transferred most of my photos from my other computer so I just have a few photos which you can see here: Excuse the quality of some shots, its not very good. IP: Logged |
Jas Moderator Posts: 536 |
posted 02-13-2004 06:28 PM
I just want to add - Along with all the negativity about dog shows and labeling the sport as a "beauty pageant" I would hope one would stop to think this may be one of the best places to find some of the most knowledgeable dog people, reputable breeders and club members involved in the fancy who are doing their best to make sure these breeds still remain the distinct breeds we know and love so. Not only that but if you were a fancier looking to find a breed that you like and suits your lifestyle I can't think of a better place to start ones searches than at a show. Yes, I am well aware of the politics and the many "show people" not worth associating with, just as there are many NON Show people who have messed up breeds and breed with little to no regard to health. Goob's comment is an excellent idea, dogs should also need to pass a "working" trial of some sort to qualify for a conformation Champion. Not all breeds have divided into working and show - sometimes its necessary to look beyond a breed we are familiar with in order to see this. For me there is no sense in having a pretty dog dumber than a doorknob, nor having a "purebred" if it can do its job but looks NOTHING like the breed its supposed to be. I've seen each of these and I have also seen the complete package. I would rather a breeder participate in showing as well as opposed to disregarding the standard. As a person involved in many aspects of the dog fancy the COMPLETE PACKAGE is what I strive for and what makes it all worthwhile. I find it incredibly insulting that someone can criticize the sport as a "beauty pageant" Go a head and condemn but without these fanciers there likely wouldn't be any of the breeds in existence today. For the record showing takes effort, time, and training, ever notice many of the dogs are in top physical condition with proper musculation and skeletal structure? And the handler has have a connection with and train the dog to respond. quote:Luck?? That is a very incorrect statement to say its all luck. In many breeding programs the dogs selected are the result of incredible research with regard to temperament, type and health, pedigree and, oh yes...........a bit 'O luck just my .01 IP: Logged |
Maisey Member Posts: 1387 |
posted 02-15-2004 11:18 AM
Gorgeous Jas! I would have missed it if you hadn't of flagged me down. The dog at flyball definately was not pb...and he wasn't doing flyball he was just there with the caretaker of the arena we have class at. He was huge and sloped down from the withers to the hindquarters, his head and nose had a slight greyhound look to them, narrow. IP: Logged |
MistressKela Member Posts: 275 |
posted 02-15-2004 12:36 PM
The ridgebacks at a dog show Jas...are FAR from roaming the african terrain or whatever it was that you said that they were originally bred for. Maybe if it was a world kennel competition....traits such as color would matter. the A in AKC stands for American...and 95% of our purebred dogs that were bred for these exotic purposes ...are now nothing more than housepets. And the luck part....obviously you can increase your chance of getting a show dog by breeding show champions. How the DNA comes together and which traits are inherited from where...is still luck. IP: Logged |
Jas Moderator Posts: 536 |
posted 02-15-2004 07:15 PM
quote: Really?? Sorry but I have to laugh at this fallacy!!
quote: I'm sorry but I don't understand your apparent knowledge on this subject. And how a "world kennel competition" (what ever you mean by that) is even relevant to color.
quote: The A in the AKC adopted the FCI standard, and American or South African they are still the same dog. What is exotic about Hunting, Baying, Herding, Tracking & Protection? My dogs are family pets before anything else. But versatile, as we also and show & do performance including agility, obedience, tracking, coursing. I guess its just LUCK they happen to excel in the aforementioned areas.
quote: You weren't talking about DNA & genetics. You were talking about "nice looking dogs mating". Like I said a bit O luck.... but you seem not to be able to understand there are other things a *good* breeder takes into consideration, and does incredible research on before deciding to get so lucky. cheers IP: Logged |
raindigger Member Posts: 25 |
posted 02-15-2004 10:56 PM
Here! Here! JAS. It's great to hear from someone who knows. I've been working in the conformation field for just over thirty years. I have worked with some of the best and those breeders work very hard to improve their lines. I worked for the president of the DPCA 25 years ago when some not so good breeders of dobies were trying to mess with the colors. Very soon after, serious skin problems cropped up. But what I liked hearing is what hardships these good breeders go through. After all of their research, many need to ship their bitches far from home and the stud fees are very high. I don't know many that make money breeding and showing. Traveling to the shows and retaining a professional handler are very expensive. It is their passion, their love. If they get a show puppy out of a litter it keeps their line going and the rest of the litter is sold to screened owners with health guarantees. These pet puppies are good representatives of the breed. With health and temperments that reflect good breeding. What a stark contrast to the backyard breeders and the puppy mills that are known to sell broken hearts to people. IP: Logged |
Jamiya Member Posts: 1392 |
posted 02-16-2004 04:38 AM
One thing I didn't realize when I started looking into breeds and dogshows before I got Nala was that the handlers often are not the owners of the dogs. I didn't realize that, although it does make sense. I always figured the fun of the show was handling your dog, but I suppose a breeders' time is taken up by so many other things that a professional handler is needed.
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Jamiya Member Posts: 1392 |
posted 02-16-2004 06:27 AM
For an interesting analysis of the issue of inbreeding and AKC registration, etc, check out the last chapter of "The Truth About Dogs" by Stephen Budiansky. The chapter is called "Brave New Dogs" and touches on genetics and inbreeding, outbreeding, the effects of a limited gene pool, etc. Naturally, there are responsible breeders who attempt to breed for working traits and temperament in their conformation show dogs. But even these breeders face a challenge because of the limited gene pool available to them due to the AKC requirement that both parents be registered dogs in the same breed in order to register the pups. Some breeds that have a lot of members aren't affected too much, but those breeds with a small number of dogs (or those "revived" from a small number of dogs) do not have a large enough gene pool and so the problems of inbreeding get worse and worse. He also goes into genetic testing and possible solutions that work a whole lot better than things like x-rays for dysplastic dogs, etc. Hopefully breeders and researchers will take note.
[This message has been edited by Jamiya (edited 02-16-2004).] IP: Logged |
susan_cude@hotmail.com Member Posts: 813 |
posted 02-16-2004 08:03 AM
Hi Jas, I just got through reading this whole thread again, very interesting! I noticed the link to your dog. He is so beautiful!!! he looks a little like a boxer in the face. Did you notice that at the last dog show (not this last one, but the one before it) that the anouncer went on and on about the ridgeback that was being shown? made me think he probably has one. They are an awesom looking breed, you must be proud! Susan IP: Logged |
MistressKela Member Posts: 275 |
posted 02-16-2004 08:46 AM
quote: Everything I said about the ridgeback and color was in reference to the statement you made there and everytyhing I said about that color not making a difference here in the united states which is where we are judging them...holds true. And when I said exotic purposes...I was referring to activities in such restricted areas and certain climates that would dictate which colors they could or could not be. The american ridgeback has no reason to be only one color. The only reason I can see it staying that one color...is if changing it created skin problems for whatever reason. Id like someone to give me a reason that a parti colored poodle is "not allowed". According to the AKC it is a non sporting breed anyways...so by that categorization..all non sporting breeds should be allowed to come in any and all colors imagineable since the AKC has not deemed them to be animals with any function. [This message has been edited by MistressKela (edited 02-16-2004).] IP: Logged |
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